MARECKS OR NOT? NOW A BROODY HEN!

[Bird momma of 5]

So sorry you are going through this, what a pretty boy. Cut back on the meal worms can cause kidney damage if they get to many. Look up avian leukocytosis symptoms sound similar. A bit to the hock can cause problems as well, look for holes around the coop. Once again so sorry. Keep up on the vitamins, take him of layers and back to growers or all flock no need for the added calcium. Good luck

 

[Bird momma of 5]

I'm not sure what you mean by a bit to the hock, and to look for holes around the coop? Will get him layers. I should have added he's been eating scratch lately - or pecking at it. My hens are more of the meal worm addicts. Rooster - not so much. He was more of a gentlemen.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

He would probably benefit from extra protein - you can give him chick starter, flock raiser, tuna, egg, meat, etc.

Egg actually only has about 12% protein, and 30% fat... though still a good source of easy to digest nutrients with lots of good vitamins and minerals.

We feed them all the crumbled layer feed, tons of meal worms and found out my hubby gives them left over canned cat food (I thought chickens were herbivorous).

Ya... the meal worms kinda debunk that myth. In fact chickens are omnivores and REQUIRE the amino acids that come from animal sources. Our "vegetarian" feeds have the amino acids added in. And when OI see someone advertising vegetarian fed chickens, to me it means they've never touched the ground or seen the light of day, cuz they will mow down on some bugs. They even like... chicken!

Cut back on the meal worms can cause kidney damage if they get to many.

It's true that meal worms are fatty... but I've never seen this claim before. Can you please share your source and maybe WHY it could cause kidney damage? Thanks! I mean of course anything out of balance isn't good... but some people are feeding meal worm as their main source of protein.

Too much calcium or protein either on *can* (doesn't mean will) cause different types of gout and kidney damage even possible failure... IF fed long term. Most likely in birds that are genetically pre disposed, but yes a possibility.

I agree that he may benefit from being taken off layer feed and the extra calcium may not be benefiting his condition.

Eggs can easily be fertile for 2 weeks after rooster interaction, maybe up to 3.

Lay off the anti biotics since they clearly aren't helping and are hard on the system.

To me, if he is eating and drinking (and able to poo without sitting in it endlessly)... I would continue to offer support and let him try to pull through. (And I am a quick to cull type person) He may stay kinda crippled but if he can eat and get around without causing to much burden to you or unrest to your flock and without being bullied, I'm sure he would love to live. I'm not sure if frozen (defrosted and smashed open) would be more nutritious or enticing than baby mush... but they are a good source of protein (even though not animal).

I honestly can't tell if he's in pain or just annoyingly crippled (for whatever the reason is). But I think pain would stop the eating to a degree. Since I think he is only uncomfortable and not seriously hurting would be the reason I would continue to offer support. But that will of course be something that you will need to assess to he best of your ability.

Don't think I would continue electrolytes for too long.

Sorry I can't be more help.

He is a BEAUTY by the way!

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Many thank to you both for your replies.
I will upload a video today (depending on winds and electricity).
Toppin (rooster) is maybe 10 months old. Same with the BO. We feed them all the crumbled layer feed, tons of meal worms and found out my hubby gives them left over canned cat food (I thought chickens were herbivorous). As far as supplements, nothing but oyster shells and grit. The baby vitamins did not contain iron- Poly Vi Sol , the vet did give him an antibiotic (SMZ TMP) - did nothing. We tried Tylan 50 prior to that - nothing. We been feeding him by hand Pediatric electrolytes, baby food (peas), canned cat food. He will peck at his food, but we don't know how much he is getting. We seen him hobble up to water and drink - sporadically. Again the St. John's Wort - Maybe 500 mg.
The weather is nuts. We go from 35 and raining to 70, then dip back down. Today 60-70mph winds.
As far as the BO - she will do anything and everything to get back in the box!
If the rooster hasn't been with the hens for over a week, are their eggs still fertile?
MANY, MANY THANKS. The little guy weighed in at 2.5 lbs over a week ago, I'm sure he has lost weight. We don't want to see him suffer, starve - he is so sad to watch.
OHHH - When the "weird walking started" (Day 1) he did try to hang with the hens and even "mate" Day 2 - he tried, but went into the coop and mainly stayed be himself.
I do hear "breathing" - the vet didn't say anything. We did put Organic Vinegar in his water for a couple of days (and do add it to the water feeder for the hens).

VIDEO coming soon! many thanks!!!

I am leaning toward Marek's for this poor fella. You can try placing him in a sling to see if he is more comfortable, you will want to monitor him while he's in it.
It's hard to tell if he is in pain or just paralyzed. You may want to weigh him again to see how much weight he has lost, this will give you a better understanding of whether or not you want to continue offering supportive care or to put him down.

If you do happen to lose him, consider sending his body to your state lab for testing, this can give better information.

I'm very sorry.

Egg actually only has about 12% protein, and 30% fat... though still a good source of easy to digest nutrients with lots of good vitamins and minerals.

hmmm....I am well aware of egg nutrition egg actually has about 6grams protein and 5grams of fat. I agree, that egg is a good source of vitamins and essential minerals. Nutritionally wise, I think it's something that is a benefit. Easy to digest and is usually well accepted by most chickens regardless if they are sick or not.
fwiw - just about anything I suggest, is something I would do if the sick/injured chicken were mine, and as always, it's personal opinion - I'm not a vet nor an
expert

 

[EggSighted4Life]

hmmm....I am well aware of egg nutrition egg actually has about 6grams protein and 5grams of fat. I agree, that egg is a good source of vitamins and essential minerals. Nutritionally wise, I think it's something that is a benefit. Easy to digest and is usually well accepted by most chickens regardless if they are sick or not.
fwiw - just about anything I suggest, is something I would do if the sick/injured chicken were mine, and as always, it's personal opinion - I'm not a vet nor an
expert

Of course I get that, and the same is true for me.

The way I get my % (in this instance) is protein calories divided by total calories. Or even protein grams divided by total grams per serving. Somehow they aren't giving me the same calculation. One says 12% while the other is 34%.

And while I agree they are usually palatable and a good source of nutrients, I just don't want it spread they are "high" in protein IF they actually aren't (12% is pretty low), when diminishing the protein content is rarely ever the intent of our suggestions.

So just for the sake of figuring out if they are indeed "high" protein, can you help me work through the math to get it right? Or describe to my over thinking brain where it's going wrong?

So if a 50g egg has 6 grams or 24 protein calories, out of 70 total.

I feel like the calorie content might be irrelevant since 1 gram of fat has more calories than a gram of protein but weighs the same. So 5 gram of fat is 45 calories and 6 grams of protein is 24 calories. Or does that make the weight irrelevant...

Do you understand what I'm asking?! This has been bugging me for some time now. And now that I have been able to work through it with some one... I think my answer is..

Protein 6/50 g= .12 weight or 24/70 kcal = .34
Fat 5/50 g= .10 weight or 45/70 kcal= .64
(.98)

So, it must be the calorie content that actually matters more than the weight. Since they add up to 100% but the weight does not.

I am always looking to learn here, and not worried at all about being "right".

So by these calculations... can I figure that eggs ARE indeed "high" in protein... to the tune of about 34%??? (even if 64% of fat, not the question) Anyone able to confirm? Sorry slightly off topic, but I think important knowledge none the less.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Of course I get that, and the same is true for me.

The way I get my % (in this instance) is protein calories divided by total calories. Or even protein grams divided by total grams per serving. Somehow they aren't giving me the same calculation. One says 12% while the other is 34%.

And while I agree they are usually palatable and a good source of nutrients, I just don't want it spread they are "high" in protein IF they actually aren't (12% is pretty low), when diminishing the protein content is rarely ever the intent of our suggestions.

So just for the sake of figuring out if they are indeed "high" protein, can you help me work through the math to get it right? Or describe to my over thinking brain where it's going wrong?

So if a 50g egg has 6 grams or 24 protein calories, out of 70 total.

I feel like the calorie content might be irrelevant since 1 gram of fat has more calories than a gram of protein but weighs the same. So 5 gram of fat is 45 calories and 6 grams of protein is 24 calories. Or does that make the weight irrelevant...

Do you understand what I'm asking?! This has been bugging me for some time now. And now that I have been able to work through it with some one... I think my answer is..

Protein 6/50 g= .12 weight or 24/70 kcal = .34
Fat 5/50 g= .10 weight or 45/70 kcal= .64
(.98)

So, it must be the calorie content that actually matters more than the weight. Since they add up to 100% but the weight does not.

I am always looking to learn here, and not worried at all about being "right".

So by these calculations... can I figure that eggs ARE indeed "high" in protein... to the tune of about 34%??? (even if 64% of fat, not the question) Anyone able to confirm? Sorry slightly off topic, but I think important knowledge none the less.

Oh dear! I have no clue as to what you are asking - maybe over complicating it.


I do see your point that egg or even Tuna might not be a "high" source of protein, but my wording is "extra protein" not "high protein". Adding egg or tuna in addition
to their normal feed would give "extra" would it not - even though small, that 6gram is still more than they would have had.

So, just to make it clear - I'm not spreading bad information, you are just not reading my posts correctly.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Oh dear! I have no clue as to what you are asking - maybe over complicating it.

I'm sure that's true!

But I think the egg MIGHT actually be 34% protein, now that I've reasoned the it out for about the 1500th time So it would be high in protein compared to "standard" feed and especially corn type stuff. And that would make your statement actually correct!

Anyways, I went the same way of not mentioning "extra protein", but that may have been based on my own possible misinformation. Please don't change your suggestions, I still think they are good. The tuna thing just hadn't been spinning in my mind because I have lots of extra eggs I wanted to feed back to the animals but it's important to me that I takes all nutritional aspect into account since too much of a good thing really isn't usually good.

Sorry for draggin' you in on that... but I think I'm set straight now! And I think eggs are 34% protein.

And tuna... looks like 88/100 calories (or 22 grams from 3 oz on the one I saw) come from protein. Almost no fat... looks like 88% protein... I mean that's almost all it is. Again, please don't change your suggestion, I got NOTHING better! Really appreciate your time!

 

[Nuffy]

I'm sure that's true!

But I think the egg MIGHT actually be 34% protein, now that I've reasoned the it out for about the 1500th time So it would be high in protein compared to "standard" feed and especially corn type stuff. And that would make your statement actually correct!

Anyways, I went the same way of not mentioning "extra protein", but that may have been based on my own possible misinformation. Please don't change your suggestions, I still think they are good. The tuna thing just hadn't been spinning in my mind because I have lots of extra eggs I wanted to feed back to the animals but it's important to me that I takes all nutritional aspect into account since too much of a good thing really isn't usually good.

Sorry for draggin' you in on that... but I think I'm set straight now! And I think eggs are 34% protein.

And tuna... looks like 88/100 calories (or 22 grams from 3 oz on the one I saw) come from protein. Almost no fat... looks like 88% protein... I mean that's almost all it is. Again, please don't change your suggestion, I got NOTHING better! Really appreciate your time!

I'm sure that's true!

But I think the egg MIGHT actually be 34% protein, now that I've reasoned the it out for about the 1500th time So it would be high in protein compared to "standard" feed and especially corn type stuff. And that would make your statement actually correct!

Anyways, I went the same way of not mentioning "extra protein", but that may have been based on my own possible misinformation. Please don't change your suggestions, I still think they are good. The tuna thing just hadn't been spinning in my mind because I have lots of extra eggs I wanted to feed back to the animals but it's important to me that I takes all nutritional aspect into account since too much of a good thing really isn't usually good.

Sorry for draggin' you in on that... but I think I'm set straight now! And I think eggs are 34% protein.

And tuna... looks like 88/100 calories (or 22 grams from 3 oz on the one I saw) come from protein. Almost no fat... looks like 88% protein... I mean that's almost all it is. Again, please don't change your suggestion, I got NOTHING better! Really appreciate your time!

Sorry did not mean to be upset you, but it does not look like classic Marek's disease. I did research avian leukocytosis symptoms on a young rooster that had similar curled toes on one leg, what he did have Was a bite to the hock. There is a very good post on here about a lady who saved her roo with similar symptoms maybe look for that post. I am into saving my girls cull as a Last resort, especially for such a pretty boy. I don't think this comes from meal worms, just that you posted they got lots of them, care must be taken.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Sorry did not mean to be upset you, but it does not look like classic Marek's disease. I did research avian leukocytosis symptoms on a young rooster that had similar curled toes on one leg, what he did have Was a bite to the hock. There is a very good post on here about a lady who saved her roo with similar symptoms maybe look for that post. I am into saving my girls cull as a Last resort, especially for such a pretty boy. I don't think this comes from meal worms, just that you posted they got lots of them, care must be taken.

I'm not upset at all, and I don't think you have anything to apologize for! I agree 100% that care should be taken. Did I come across upset? Sorry if so! I only mean to be a practical learner. But I feel safe here at BYC and like most people are looking out for each other, including you.

This isn't actually even my thread or case.

But I care deeply about all things nutrition related and when I see people claiming certain things cause others... I just like to see the evidence so I can review it for myself.

Cut back on the meal worms can cause kidney damage if they get to many.

Your post had other good suggestions, so I don't mean to pick on you at all! I just have never heard this and thought you might be able to provide resources backing the claim. Even if it isn't the issue here, the learning can translate to so many other areas. Like I said some people are looking onto using meal worms as their MAIN source of protein. And anything out of whack can cause lot's of issues, I'm sure including kidney failure.

Do you have any link to reference info regarding feeding meal worms and the effect on kidneys? Thanks tons for sharing!

DEAR OP... @Bird momma of 5 sorry for the hijack. Have you already looked at a chicken sling to see if you thought it would help him?

 

[Bird momma of 5]

LOL I'm lost in my own thread. That being said, many thanks for everyone's help! My husband seems to think it may be a predisposed position. What I should have mentioned IN FIRST POST, but didn't occur to me... When we would pick up the roo, is legs would always "tremmer". We assumed he was "scared" or excuse the pun - chicken. When you would put him back down, he did walk fine. What ever this is, happend fast and he seems like he declined fast. If any improvement at all, I feel like he has plateaued - if not gong backwards.
We are keeping up with the vitamins, still see no improvement. I have given him eggs, he won't touch them. Debating if I should continue the St. John's wort. This morning he did put up more of a fight trying to feed him that.
I will look into the sling -as yesterday afternoon he had a hard time "getting his foot". I did explain to my DD who (age 11) is researching, loves this sight thinks he's improving. I explained he isn't walking, but more crawling. Checked his hoc (sp????) didn't see sores.