MARECKS OR NOT? NOW A BROODY HEN!

[Nuffy]

LOL I'm lost in my own thread. That being said, many thanks for everyone's help! My husband seems to think it may be a predisposed position. What I should have mentioned IN FIRST POST, but didn't occur to me... When we would pick up the roo, is legs would always "tremmer". We assumed he was "scared" or excuse the pun - chicken. When you would put him back down, he did walk fine. What ever this is, happend fast and he seems like he declined fast. If any improvement at all, I feel like he has plateaued - if not gong backwards.
We are keeping up with the vitamins, still see no improvement. I have given him eggs, he won't touch them. Debating if I should continue the St. John's wort. This morning he did put up more of a fight trying to feed him that.
I will look into the sling -as yesterday afternoon he had a hard time "getting his foot". I did explain to my DD who (age 11) is researching, loves this sight thinks he's improving. I explained he isn't walking, but more crawling. Checked his hoc (sp????) didn't see sores.

Good on the hock did you find the thread here on the lady who had a roo with similar symptoms. I think it is a good thread, you may well find some good stuff to use for pretty boy. Hope you don't mind my calling him name.

 

[rebrascora]

I'm afraid that looks very much like Marek's Disease to me too and having treated quite a few birds with it over the past few years, you get to recognise the signs. I'm afraid that if he is not actively eating then you are on a slippery downward slope with him. I have supported birds like him for months and as long as they have an interest in food, they have a chance, but once they no longer want to eat, I now euthanize them. I don't believe that they suffer pain with Marek's paralysis but the development of internal tumours will no doubt cause them discomfort. Looking at that last video where he is struggling to keep his head up, I think I might be considering calling time, especially if he is no longer willingly eating. If you do decide to persist, it might help him to trim back some of his crest which will make seeing food easier and perhaps coordinating to eat it a little easier.
A chicken sling may make him more comfortable as others have suggested. It is important to get it at the right height so that he is supported but still can feel the bottom with his feet/hocks. They can be made very simply like the photo below...

 

[Wyorp Rock]

LOL I'm lost in my own thread. That being said, many thanks for everyone's help! My husband seems to think it may be a predisposed position. What I should have mentioned IN FIRST POST, but didn't occur to me... When we would pick up the roo, is legs would always "tremmer". We assumed he was "scared" or excuse the pun - chicken. When you would put him back down, he did walk fine. What ever this is, happend fast and he seems like he declined fast. If any improvement at all, I feel like he has plateaued - if not gong backwards.
We are keeping up with the vitamins, still see no improvement. I have given him eggs, he won't touch them. Debating if I should continue the St. John's wort. This morning he did put up more of a fight trying to feed him that.
I will look into the sling -as yesterday afternoon he had a hard time "getting his foot". I did explain to my DD who (age 11) is researching, loves this sight thinks he's improving. I explained he isn't walking, but more crawling. Checked his hoc (sp????) didn't see sores.

Were you able to weigh him again to see how much weight he has lost?

Having leg tremors, sounds neurological, but unfortunately, it's also related to Marek's. I don't really see any harm with using the St. John's Wort, just make sure you have the correct dosing -I've seen it mentioned in a few article here and there, some feel that it's worth trying, I don't know enough about it to say-that would be up to you. I would also continue with supportive care, focusing on protein, vitamins E, B2, B1 and the mineral Selnium. (poultry vitamins or a combination of human vitamins, no iron).

I'm very sorry. But do agree, if he is not improving, then it's time to consider his quality of life and how much he may be suffering.

 

[Bird momma of 5]

Thank you once again - EVERYONE. Wyorp Rock, I think he has lost maybe .5 lbs. I'll continue with the St. Johns Wort - I am a little concerned on the amount. I up'ed the capsules to 600mg - he doesn't like it, but he deals. When you said neuro. could this have been Marecks since we brought him home (from the Amish)???
rebrascora - THANK YOU FOR THE PIC AND REPLY!! forgive my chicken ignorance...when you say cut his crest, are you talking about his "pom Pom"? I didn't know you could do that, I would have given him a trim months ago!
I will keep you posted. I can't thank you all enough, especially when I see all the posts - daily.
I think the hardest part is convincing my DD. If he stands for a few seconds, she see's it is moving forward.
In my heart, I don't want to cull. Everyone's reply is a HUGE HELP!!! However this is starting to take a toll, especially during the week. Seeing him by himself, crouched is when it really strikes the heart.

 

[Bird momma of 5]

I just got off with a friend of a friend. He seems to think (WITHOUT SEEING MY ROO) it could be VAULTED SKULL B/C of the breed, or Leucocytozoonosis . Any thoughts on the Vaulted Skull? The other Leucoctozoonosis doesn't sound "fixable" either.

 

[rebrascora]

By far the most common ailment to cause that behaviour in young chickens under a year is Marek's disease, it is very easily contracted and widespread and it can lie dormant in an infected bird for months before they actually have an outbreak and exhibit symptoms..... like the herpes cold sore virus in humans.... you don't know who has it until they get a cold sore and it is often triggered by stress. Unfortunately Marek's is much more aggressive than cold sores though.
Yes it is possible, because of his breed and having a crest, that he has sustained an injury to his vaulted skull but often people prefer to believe this than to accept that they have Marek's in their flock.... it is the AIDS of the chicken world and people don't want to admit to it, so they look for any other cause to blame.
I'm not familiar with Leucoctozoonosis. I wonder if that is another term for Lymphoid Leucosis which is a similar disease to Marek's but usually affects older birds.

I entirely understand the situation with your daughter and the longer you care for him the more attached you get.... I've been dealing with Marek's for a number of years now and I've shed more than a few tears over young birds that lost the battle to it and I've had to help over the chicken rainbow. Death is an integral part of life and responsible pet ownership/prevention of suffering are valid subjects for children to learn about and discuss. Yes they are emotional subjects but should not be shied away from because of that. Being emotional means you are loving and caring, but you have to be aware that it is selfish to keep a bird alive because of your emotional needs.... the welfare of the animal has to come first. I'm not saying that you should euthanize him, but just that it might be a good time to start that discussion with your daughter, so that she has time to rationalise it whilst you continue to care for him.

Yes, his crest is the feathers that sprout out of the top of his head and you can trim them back with some scissors just like cutting our hair. They would eventually be replaced when he moulted in the autumn if he were to make it that far but sadly I doubt that is on the cards and if it makes him more comfortable or enables you to feed him more easily, then there is no harm in doing it.

I really wish you luck with him and hope that your daughter is able to come to terms with what I believe is going to be a sad conclusion. I have had birds make some pretty miraculous recoveries from Marek's attacks although they are always prone to subsequent and more prolonged ones in the future. In my experience there is hope as long as they are keen to eat, but once they go off their food, the end is near and that is when I help them.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Thank you once again - EVERYONE. Wyorp Rock, I think he has lost maybe .5 lbs. I'll continue with the St. Johns Wort - I am a little concerned on the amount. I up'ed the capsules to 600mg - he doesn't like it, but he deals. When you said neuro. could this have been Marecks since we brought him home (from the Amish)???

I just got off with a friend of a friend. He seems to think (WITHOUT SEEING MY ROO) it could be VAULTED SKULL B/C of the breed, or Leucocytozoonosis . Any thoughts on the Vaulted Skull? The other Leucoctozoonosis doesn't sound "fixable" either.

Marek's can affect chickens regardless of where they came from.

I'm glad you are finding support from friends, it's nice to be able to talk chicken with others! I'm like Barbara, perhaps your friend was refering to Avian Lymphoid Leukosis which can have similar symptoms like Marek's. Leucocytozoonosis - I had to look that up-if I read correctly it's disease caused by a protozoan blood parasite transmitted by the bite of a blackfly. I pulled a couple of links for you for comparison.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms/lymphoid-leukosis-in-poultry
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/bloodborne-organisms/leucocytozoonosis-in-poultry

You also mentioned Vaulted Skull. "Most" birds with a crest do have a vaulted skull-this means there is a hole or unclosed portion of the skull, this is a genetic trait that helps give these birds a higher "poof" (especially in Silkies). Vaulted skull birds can suffer from brain damage or neurological symptoms. A well placed peck or injury to the head can cause damage. Sometimes a bird can get water on the brain or have infection, but symptoms would be very similar to Wry Neck-twisting of the head, tremors, walking backwards, spinning in circles, etc.

The hock walking/crawling in your video, along with his demeanor, to me he is not doing well. I also agree this is Marek's. Testing/necropsy from your state lab would give you confirmation.

I'm very sorry, it's heartbreaking when a bird is not doing well and shows no improvement despite our best efforts.

 

[Bird momma of 5]

Marek's can affect chickens regardless of where they came from.

I'm glad you are finding support from friends, it's nice to be able to talk chicken with others! I'm like Barbara, perhaps your friend was refering to Avian Lymphoid Leukosis which can have similar symptoms like Marek's. Leucocytozoonosis - I had to look that up-if I read correctly it's disease caused by a protozoan blood parasite transmitted by the bite of a blackfly. I pulled a couple of links for you for comparison.
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms/lymphoid-leukosis-in-poultry
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/bloodborne-organisms/leucocytozoonosis-in-poultry

You also mentioned Vaulted Skull. "Most" birds with a crest do have a vaulted skull-this means there is a hole or unclosed portion of the skull, this is a genetic trait that helps give these birds a higher "poof" (especially in Silkies). Vaulted skull birds can suffer from brain damage or neurological symptoms. A well placed peck or injury to the head can cause damage. Sometimes a bird can get water on the brain or have infection, but symptoms would be very similar to Wry Neck-twisting of the head, tremors, walking backwards, spinning in circles, etc.

The hock walking/crawling in your video, along with his demeanor, to me he is not doing well. I also agree this is Marek's. Testing/necropsy from your state lab would give you confirmation.

I'm very sorry, it's heartbreaking when a bird is not doing well and shows no improvement despite our best efforts.

Thank you so much for all your help. I had my roo put down yesterday. While the vet didn't even look at him and was "surprised" he was back. I probably wasted money we don't have, but I asked for an autopsy. From there we will have to decide about sending him to the state. I didn't realize how costly that was. My daughter also thanks you. Wyorp Rock - she thought you were a little harsh and yesterday she said, I know they were only telling me the truth. THANK YOU!

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

I'm so sorry you lost him but very confident it was the right thing to go, to end his suffering. I've read right through Wyorp Rocks posts and cannot find anything harsh so I am wondering if perhaps your daughter was upset by my post. If so, I'm sorry but it sounds like she has now rationalised it. I understand being emotional in these cases and it is easy to get hurt, even by a well meaning truth.

It's not clear from your post regarding the vet and a necropsy but sending the bird to a state facility for it should be significantly cheaper than the vet doing the necropsy or sending it in for you because the vet will charge for processing it and may even also add a commission onto the state charges. The state facility will have far more experience of poultry and therefore know exactly what to look for, so I would urge you to bypass your vet if you are able. There is a list on BYC of state facilities which operate this service and it is often low cost to individuals whereas they may charge a veterinary practice a higher rate. I'm in the UK so not best placed to advise but hopefully someone else can point you in the right direction for your state..... I'm still trying to figure out which state MD is .

 

[Nuffy]

Hi

I'm so sorry you lost him but very confident it was the right thing to go, to end his suffering. I've read right through Wyorp Rocks posts and cannot find anything harsh so I am wondering if perhaps your daughter was upset by my post. If so, I'm sorry but it sounds like she has now rationalised it. I understand being emotional in these cases and it is easy to get hurt, even by a well meaning truth.

It's not clear from your post regarding the vet and a necropsy but sending the bird to a state facility for it should be significantly cheaper than the vet doing the necropsy or sending it in for you because the vet will charge for processing it and may even also add a commission onto the state charges. The state facility will have far more experience of poultry and therefore know exactly what to look for, so I would urge you to bypass your vet if you are able. There is a list on BYC of state facilities which operate this service and it is often low cost to individuals whereas they may charge a veterinary practice a higher rate. I'm in the UK so not best placed to advise but hopefully someone else can point you in the right direction for your state..... I'm still trying to figure out which state MD is .

Md is Maryland there is a lab in Frederick but that is a 3to 4 hour drive up if you Live below Annapolis. Your vet can help with anything closer. So sorry you had to go through this. Ask for a complete histology.