Mareks, showing poultry and safety precautions

[HighStreetCoop]

I'm picturing the can off whoop-*ss that would be unloaded if a dog breeder acted this way with parvo or distemper. There's jus a level of selfishness in this breeder's actions that is unconscionable.

 

[seminolewind]

Seems to me that the only action there is is to protect your own birds first and foremost. Vaccinate day olds. Shows or any get together should insist on proof of Marek's vaccination at a day old. Just as they do or should show proof of NPIP -negative. Reality is there is nothing to protect birds from getting Marek's and passing or shedding it. Even if they are not symptomatic or vaccinated, they will still carry and expose others to the virus. That's the reality. And we are not far enough along to safely show birds that have no exposure whatsoever. Vaccinated birds can shed the virus if exposed.

Protect your own. Require every participant to show proof of vaccination at a day old. All show participants will be exposed at some point, expose their flock, and have many deaths. Birds do not have to be symptomatic to shed virus. Birds can shed the virus even if vaccinated.

Commercial growers have had to rely on this for over 30 years. Their losses went from 60-80% down to 1% with vaccination, disinfecting, and all in all out (not continuing to add chickens to an establish flock other than hatching eggs or day olds vaccinated preferably from a hatchery where they've had no contact with an adult chicken) They go from incubator to being checked, sexed, and packaged for export. Hatched chicks do not carry the virus from the mother, and the outer shell can not support Marek's due to the temp of incubation and humidity (so far).

Morally, I and others feel that we should not knowingly be bringing exposed chickens to a show. I would hate to find out that I caused another the heartache I have.

 

[sumi]

Thank you all for your input. The spreading of Mareks and the risks and presence is something I've been debating in another thread where this issue was brought up today, starting at post #2845. So all I'll say here is unless someone can prove that is impossible for birds from that situation (infected farm) to amplify the risks of the other birds present at the show to get sick, I will not find it acceptable to do something like that.

 

[Suzie]

I saw this post early today and was waiting to see what responses there would be...

For anyone who has lost the life of any of their fowl..for any reason whatsoever..it is abhorrent for them to know that some irresponsible selfish people are so obsessed with their own selfish wants that they will risk the lives of our birds to "show" their sick birds...I am disgusted that this can happen...the heartbreak that this will lead to is too much to bear...

I feel that Speckledhen, Seminolewind, Nambroth and Haunted55 should be listened to...THEY know the heartbreaking loss...I feel sick and very upset for them in their endeavours to educate us all..

It should be illegal to show birds with illness...maybe one day it will come to pass....anyone that truly cares for their charges will never contemplate a rosette for the demise of others...

Thanks so much Sumi for this post...

 

[buffalogal]

The first rule for raising healthy chickens is "No antibiotics", which, combined with "All I keep for sick birds is lice powder, sulmet and an hatchet" comprises the entire class of Poultry Health 101 at the Natural Poultrykeeping School of Thought.

It's easy to give a bird a shot, watch it miraculously "recover" and because that particular bird is no longer exhibiting symptoms, fool yourself into thinking you have cured the problem. In the short term, (and certainly for saving that individual), treatment is the way to go. But for the long term, and for the overall health of your flock, natural immunity is best. I have yet to enter a facility anywhere capable of hosting a poultry show and not seen wild birds flitting about in the rafters. The only way to eliminate all risk is to keep your birds at home under lock and key, but I'm raising poultry, not hothouse orchids. I well know that by relying on a natural immunity to develop that you could very well loose your best bird, or most beloved pet when a disease manifests itself, but the rest of the flock will be stronger.

As for someone showing a bird that could have been exposed to mareks, I have yet to see anyone trying to exhibit a semi paralyzed bird, or one with the tell tale gray iris. I don't for an instant believe the person you heard about is planning on bringing an actively sick bird, or even one that has recovered. For one thing, pretty much any illness is going to set a bird back so much that a serious exhibitor will not consider it for competition. For another, most serious exhibitors have had their "show string" and (the seconds) picked out and separated from the rest of the flock for months in advance. I would worry less about a story that "OMG!!!! Someone had MAREKS!!! at their farm!!!!" than I would the guy who exhibits an otherwise healthy looking bird that is snicking.
I will say I consider breeds like Dutch Bantams which seem to have no natural immunity to be a special case because they were so rare breeders did everything they could to insure the survival of every bird, including vaccination and not allowing them to be exposed to that virus. I liken them to the devastating effect on native populations of diseases the first time they were exposed to them. That's going to take at least a decade to create a strain with a more natural immunity, but I'm confidant they will manage.

Because my moral position regarding keeping animals requires me to consider the life of the individual *and* the health of the flock, if I have a 'sick' bird (that's not caused by nutrition, cocci, lice or worms), they're isolated and I'll medicate it until it's over the initial outbreak (that is, symptom free) and then they are permanently removed from my flock. My culls that can't be sold due to any kind of health issues are given to a delightful Gentleman I know who just wants birds running around to eat bugs and give him something to look at. He lives in a considerably more isolated and woodsy area than I do that also has more predators, and from time to time he looses unwary birds. Not so many that I feel like I'm Captain Kirk picking a Redshirt for the away team, but enough that the birds remaining are tough as nails at surviving. This past Summer, I took in a few young birds that had been confined as a favor to the owner (equal status NPIP) who was moving. I continued to keep them in isolation, treated with antibiotics and when the time came, I met my old friend at the corner of his road and handed them over for a trip to Talos IV.

(Edited for typos)

 

[BantamLover21]

I feel that Speckledhen, Seminolewind, Nambroth and Haunted55 should be listened to...THEY know the heartbreaking loss...I feel sick and very upset for them in their endeavours to educate us all..

I know the loss, too. Last fall, I lost two cockerels, one pullet, and one hen to the disease. The hen was my favorite bird, a 1 year old bantam pullet named Pip. I hand fed her for a month before she finally died--I tried all sorts of natural "cures" like St. Johns Wort, turmeric, and eventually colloidal silver, but nothing worked. I felt terrible... I can only imagine how people like Seminolewind, who have been dealing with this for years, feel.

Since then, I've decided to cull birds showing Marek's symptoms as soon as I notice that they're sick. No more nursing sick birds that were probably weak in the beginning.

Consequently, I do realize how terrible the Marek's virus is, and I realize that shows may lead to exposure and possible infection of non-resistant birds. But I don't want a disease to govern my life. If everyone acted that way with other animal (or human) diseases, then the world would be a lot different. I think the best thing poultry owners can do is vaccinate their chickens(or breed for resistance), encourage other people to vaccinate their flocks as well, practice at least some biosecurity, and enjoy their birds.

I will not take any obviously sick birds to a show--that would be wrong. All birds that I take to shows appear healthy and have not been in contact with recently sick birds. Also, I do practice bio-security measures, to a certain extent. I keep my chicks separate from older birds until they are at least 8 weeks old, always quarantine new birds, stay away from other poultry owners' chicks, and wear different clothes when I am on other poultry owners' property. I also make use of a disinfecting footbath, although that, admittedly, does not kill the Marek's virus. True, I could do more, and after being part of this thread, I think I will.

I really did not mean to start an argument or criticize other member's opinions. I have a great respect for all of your ideas and experience, and strive to serve the BYC community as well as you do.

And that is all I'm going to say...

 

[Suzie]

I know the loss, too. Last fall, I lost two cockerels, one pullet, and one hen to the disease. The hen was my favorite bird, a 1 year old bantam pullet named Pip. I hand fed her for a month before she finally died--I tried all sorts of natural "cures" like St. Johns Wort, turmeric, and eventually colloidal silver, but nothing worked. I felt terrible... I can only imagine how people like Seminolewind, who have been dealing with this for years, feel.

Since then, I've decided to cull birds showing Marek's symptoms as soon as I notice that they're sick. No more nursing sick birds that were probably weak in the beginning.

Consequently, I do realize how terrible the Marek's virus is, and I realize that shows may lead to exposure and possible infection of non-resistant birds. But I don't want a disease to govern my life. If everyone acted that way with human diseases, then the world would be a lot different. I think the best thing poultry owners can do is vaccinate their chickens(or breed for resistance), encourage other people to vaccinate their flocks as well, practice at least some biosecurity, and enjoy their birds.

I will not take any obviously sick birds to a show--that would be wrong. All birds that I take to shows appear healthy and have not been in contact with recently sick birds. Also, I do practice bio-security measures, to a certain extent. I keep my chicks separate from older birds until they are at least 8 weeks old, always quarantine new birds, stay away from other poultry owners' chicks, and wear different clothes when I am on other poultry owners' property. I also make use of a disinfecting footbath, although that, admittedly, does not kill the Marek's virus. True, I could do more, and after being part of this thread, I think I will.

I really did not mean to start an argument or criticize other member's opinions. I have a great respect for all of your ideas and experience, and strive to serve the BYC community as well as you do.

And that is all I'm going to say...

I personally have a compromised immune system...and I ask anyone that knows me not to come and visit if they have an infection, cough, cold etc..

I have spent time in Hospital as a result of "friends" visiting me and giving me infections...which can be life threatening...it also results in my treatment for my RA being stopped and the resulting pain and deterioration in my health and ability to carry on what I consider to be my right to a normal life is compromised...all I ask is that people consider their actions upon others and their charges.

 

[Nambroth]

It's easy to give a bird a shot, watch it miraculously "recover" and because that particular bird is no longer exhibiting symptoms, fool yourself into thinking you have cured the problem. In the short term, (and certainly for saving that individual), treatment is the way to go. But for the long term, and for the overall health of your flock, natural immunity is best.

You don't give a bird with Marek's a shot. The Marek's vaccine is administered to day-old chicks. It introduces their immune system to the virus while the chicks are still developing their immune systems, and gives the bird a boost in being able to build immunity. It's not medicine.

Quote: True. It would be strange even for someone that didn't know what they were seeing to show a bird with active symptoms of any obvious disease. I wouldn't expect to see it-- breeders and people that show want to show birds that look their best.
That being said, if someone is having an active problem with Marek's in their flock, even if they have been separated for a while, it would be especially irresponsible to show any members of the flock (unless housed on different properties for those months). From my understanding, the virus is most heavily shed during the 'incubation' and active symptoms phase. A bird could easily spread it at a show in these circumstances.

Anyhow, I am not trying to butt heads with you. I understand and agree that the multitudes of possible chicken diseases should not control our lives utterly! I am just trying to say that there is a difference between general risk, and the guarantee of spread (by guarantee of spread, I mean showing a bird from a flock that where one or more bird-- even the ones not being shown-- actively demonstrate symptoms of an airborne communicable disease).

 

[buffalogal]

My apologies. I mentioned "shots", antibiotics, and keeping your flock at home under lock and key (basically a self imposed biosecurity quarantine) as part of a generalized introduction pointing out the difference between treating and/or attempting to prevent all illness in contrast to allowing the birds to build up a natural immunity. (Natural Poultrykeeping School of Thought) I now see that I should have been more explicit.

My specific views about the topic of this thread were written after the words "As for someone showing a bird that could have been exposed to mareks." To recap, I am not as worried about that particular virus as I am the various contagious disease involving the upper respiratory tract that can be "treated" into remission yet leave the bird an active carrier for life. I have seen birds with frothy eyes and swollen faces, damp shoulders and bits of litter stuck to their beak sitting in cages in public, mostly bird sales and swaps, but also county fairs which in this part of the country are generally casual affairs rather than sanctioned by the APA.
If you have ever taken your birds to any show, they have already been exposed to mareks. It is my understanding that the virus is so common that if you have walked into the feedstore, or had a guest over who has been to one of the Farmer Lite stores when they're selling chicks, your birds have already been exposed. If you have not lost any birds to it, it means they have some degree of natural resistance, which is wonderful. If your birds do come down with it, your options boil down to starting a vaccination program or allow the disease to cull for you and repopulate with the offspring of the survivors. Another option to the use of commercial vaccine would be to start raising turkeys, or at least, locate fresh turkey dropping to put on the floor of the brooder with new chicks with the ideal being that they will trigger an immune response. (though I have never had a problem with mareks, I ended up utilizing the turkey option by default after I was given a half dozen poults, but as always, YMMV)

 

[chooks4life]

If you have ever taken your birds to any show, they have already been exposed to mareks. It is my understanding that the virus is so common that if you have walked into the feedstore, or had a guest over who has been to one of the Farmer Lite stores when they're selling chicks, your birds have already been exposed.

True that, I got MDV from a family friend. But I do wonder about feedstores; the one I went to most recently had a Buff Brahma bantam hen sitting and sneezing in one cage, breathing heavily and pale-faced, and a leghorn hen in another cage relentlessly circling and stopping once in every circle to rip feathers out of the mostly naked back of a young cockerel who stood with his chest and face pressed to the mesh of the corner of their cage. Both social and physical diseases represented in one place. Reminds me why I don't buy chooks from feedstores, ever.

Even worse... I went to the major supermarket twice in the last week and they had a mobile petting zoo set up in the middle of the whole shopping complex, without booties for the patrons' feet, so there was diarrhea and disease spread all over the floor outside the cages. I have absolutely no doubt that they just spread serious diseases to many farmers, because this is a rural area so many of the shoppers were indeed farmers, and those animals were visually very sick, every species of them.

I considered reporting them and complaining to management, something I am generally unwilling to do, but I just may... They had sick chickens, sick pigs, sick goats, sick sheep, and more, all sick! Some of lambs were in the latter stages of dying from kidney disease. Ok, I'm going to mention it to the management, even just remembering it aggravates me. I wonder if there were any human-transmissible diseases there... With husbandry like that, what's the chances not?

The first rule for raising healthy chickens is "No antibiotics", which, combined with "All I keep for sick birds is lice powder, sulmet and an hatchet" comprises the entire class of Poultry Health 101 at the Natural Poultrykeeping School of Thought.

While I'm also not keen on antibiotics etc, you and I have a different idea of what natural poultrykeeping is; I'm not saying this as some attempt to begin a debate about the virtues of your methods versus mine, just to point out to newbies who may read this that there is no unified natural poultrykeeping school of thought per se.

(I know nobody thinks it's an actual institution, but I want it to be clear that it's ok for people to have different methods without it becoming some kind of heresy or controversy). Different strokes for different folks.

As for someone showing a bird that could have been exposed to mareks, I have yet to see anyone trying to exhibit a semi paralyzed bird, or one with the tell tale gray iris. I don't for an instant believe the person you heard about is planning on bringing an actively sick bird, or even one that has recovered. For one thing, pretty much any illness is going to set a bird back so much that a serious exhibitor will not consider it for competition. For another, most serious exhibitors have had their "show string" and (the seconds) picked out and separated from the rest of the flock for months in advance. I would worry less about a story that "OMG!!!! Someone had MAREKS!!! at their farm!!!!" than I would the guy who exhibits an otherwise healthy looking bird that is snicking.

The problem with this scenario is that a bird exposed to MD can still look healthy while sharing the virus around; also a severely infected bird that is almost at the point where it will (possibly) begin showing the more telltale symptoms can still look well enough to show. The birds having been separated from the main flock months in advance is no guarantee of anything. Who here, that has had MDV in their flock, doesn't recall a bird that looked fine right before a sudden descent into the worst symptoms?

Also, the 'tell tale symptoms' are only guidelines, not present in all cases, which is another problem; for pretty much all the serious diseases out there, there are known to be some occurrence of asymptomatic cases. They're infected but they don't show it. They may survive it or go on to die from it, but either way they are not typical cases in the meanwhile and they are not uncommon, either. I don't doubt that plenty of them have been shown in past, quite possibly even successfully just because they looked well enough during that time period.

Best wishes.