Miconazole didn't work Need med advice

[OKhobbit]

Update edit: I consider this almost an emergency now. She is getting weaker, standing and closing her eyes, which have had a sleepy look the last two days. She won't compete to eat very close to the other chicken now - she used to be the dominant girl. She is drinking alot of water from the nipple waterer, and has wanted more water for a few weeks now. She does eat a little from the hanging round feeder. I just brought her in to the crate again to see if she could eat without any competition, and she is not eating. She is just on the perch with her eyes closed. Please see below for some history and questions about antibiotic or wormer toward the end. Thank you.

Post:
I'm writing for help again. Lucy (will be 2 in early March) completed the miconazole a couple of days ago. (Tried the coconut oil first, which seemed to help clear out what may have been a blockage.) Every morning she still has a doughy crop, never a sour smell. The crop bra arrives in 5 days, but I'm not convinced she has a pendulous crop in light of efforts to help her so far. I continue to massage a few times a day, especially to initially soften it in the early morning.

I put their wire run in the garage a couple of days ago to reunite them (and we are dropping down the next week to around zero degrees) and she's still in the hard molt, since mid-December. I put her back with the other RIR Gracie on Wednesday in the garage where it won't freeze. I also wanted to see how she would do in a more normal environment with her flock mate.

Lucy has been eating and drinking, but still has very watery poop with digested food in it. I put a call in on Tuesday, the sixth day of miconazole treatment, to the vet that did the fecal float test the week before asking if there is a more effective prescription yeast medicine and he has not returned my call. There are no chicken vets in my area.

I am not a vet or any kind of medical professional, but I researched and came up with these possibilities: salpingitis, infectious bronchitis (since the other chicken has always had reproductive issues, neither has ever had respiratory symptoms), cloacitis (since vent is very clean, possible in intestines or uterus?), or just a hard molt.

The other possibility since the vet thought he MIGHT have seen a roundworm and cropworm, are one or both of these. I have SafeGuard but read you aren't supposed to use it when they are molting. But, she is shrinking away. Her normal weight before was 5 lbs 9 oz, last week she was 4 lbs 14 oz, and this morning first thing she is 3 lbs. 11 oz. In September, they were both treated for tapes with Equimax paste once and then again in 10 days. Have not seen any tapes since.

Can I worm her considering her condition? Do I attempt to try to find an antibiotic and if so what do you recommend? I am now well practiced using the 1 ml/cc syringe which I used for the miconazole. For two weeks now I've used either Poultry Cell or Rooster Booster electrolytes/vitamins in her water.

Thank you for your help.

 

[MommyGirl]

I’m not really sure what could be going on with your hen. Hopefully someone comes along soon to help

 

[Eggcessive]

If the vet only thought he saw 1 or 2 worm eggs, that doesn’t sound like a bad infestation. But if you feel like worming her may be worth it, I would go ahead and use the SafeGuard. There is a possibility of feather problems using it during a molt, but there are plenty of us that have used it during a molt without any problems. Valbazen can also be used 1/2 ml orally, then repeated in 10 days. Shake it very well and use a syringe to give it, and it can be found online. Nystatin is an antifungal medicine that can be found without a prescription online called Medistatin here, where it can be given in a small amount of water or mixed into food:
https://jedds.com/products/medistatin-medpet

Crop problems can be related to another disease process that is causing pressure on the abdominal organs. Reproductive disorders, cancer, worms, and water belly are some possible causes. Antibiotics could cause worse problems with her crop. Most chickens I have treated for crop problems have not survived. Azygous’s article which you may have read is a good one,
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...w-to-know-which-one-youre-dealing-with.73607/

 

[OKhobbit]

If the vet only thought he saw 1 or 2 worm eggs, that doesn’t sound like a bad infestation. But if you feel like worming her may be worth it, I would go ahead and use the SafeGuard. There is a possibility of feather problems using it during a molt, but there are plenty of us that have used it during a molt without any problems. Valbazen can also be used 1/2 ml orally, then repeated in 10 days. Shake it very well and use a syringe to give it, and it can be found online. Nystatin is an antifungal medicine that can be found without a prescription online called Medistatin here, where it can be given in a small amount of water or mixed into food:
https://jedds.com/products/medistatin-medpet

Crop problems can be related to another disease process that is causing pressure on the abdominal organs. Reproductive disorders, cancer, worms, and water belly are some possible causes. Antibiotics could cause worse problems with her crop. Most chickens I have treated for crop problems have not survived. Azygous’s article which you may have read is a good one,
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...w-to-know-which-one-youre-dealing-with.73607/

I really checked her feather production today and it looks like all the pins have poked through and most of the longer feathers are about 1" with varying lengths of shaft left. I think she initially may have had an obstruction caused by little feathers, which I saw when she started pooping again. The watery diarrhea (REALLY watery) has gone on since she started the molt, but I think losing all that water has to be hard for her. There was one day when the poops were pretty solid, but got watery again. She has lost so much weight in spite of my multiple times a day encouragement to eat. She will eat, pretty much only wants her crumble, but it just seems to be going through her now, digested, with poop and urates, but diarrhea.
I did read, several times, the articles about this, including the one you reference, and I've tried to use and apply the information, some of which seems a bit incomplete or just didn't work with her. But, thank you for posting it again and I will review to make sure I haven't missed anything. A big problem with the greek yogurt is she absolutely refuses it and shakes her head if I try to put it up under her upper beak. Another great helper here suggested I use tomato juice but she turned up her nose at that as well. I did get the 3 cc syringe (baby bird feeding kit) with the feeding tube but have not used it since she has had the smaller syringe down her throat so much during the miconazole treatment.
Yes, I tried to research other causes, but I can't diagnose with my limited knowledge. She does not have water belly - I check for that every couple of days.
For the valbazen, I only have two chickens, but I guess I need to add this to my ever growing first aid kit for them.
The info about the medistatin is great and I'd like to see what happens after the worming. After 7 days of miconazole you'd think it would have worked, however, so that's why I'm asking about antibiotics or worming.
I will withhold food from her overnight and dose her in the morning after massaging whatever dough accumulates overnight (could what I feel in the morning be worms?). I read the dosage is .23 ml per lb., 1x per day, for 5 days. I calculate 3.5 lbs to be .8 ml/cc. I don't think she has enough time left for the longer 1x then again in 10 days. And she's not laying, no surprise.
If all this doesn't work and she is still alive, can you recommend an antibiotic for the crop/diarrhea problem?
Could all this just be because of the hard molt?
Thank you as always Eggcessive and I hope you are staying warm!

 

[Eggcessive]

I would round off the SafeGuard wormer to 0.25 ml per pound and give her 1 ml for 4 pounds. It is very safe and won’t hurt her. Pull down on her wattles and give 1/2 ml, release to swallow, then repeat with the rest. I would still hold off on an antibiotic since a crop disorder may be fungal. My chickens would usually take a little yogurt mixed with their chicken feed and a little water. I prefer to try and get them to take food on their own. But they need to drink water, and their beaks can be dipped to take water from a small cup up to the beak.

 

[OKhobbit]

I would round off the SafeGuard wormer to 0.25 ml per pound and give her 1 ml for 4 pounds. It is very safe and won’t hurt her. Pull down on her wattles and give 1/2 ml, release to swallow, then repeat with the rest. I would still hold off on an antibiotic since a crop disorder may be fungal. My chickens would usually take a little yogurt mixed with their chicken feed and a little water. I prefer to try and get them to take food on their own. But they need to drink water, and their beaks can be dipped to take water from a small cup up to the beak.

Started the Safeguard this morning. She struggles so much when I try to give her anything and it is hard to hold her still for the two stage squirt down her esophagus, but I will keep trying. I think I get the syringe down there enough it just goes rapidly to the crop. She is still pretty strong. She gained an ounce since yesterday. Yay. I ordered the medistatin and it will be expedited to arrive Wednesday. Will keep trying with the greek yogurt, food, and water. She refused that again this morning. Always gets excited when I pour her water to give her and she drinks a lot. I guess she feels the crop and instincts make her drink so much. If she were human I'd think maybe diabetes - not sure if that's a chicken thing. She has also started since last week to occasionally do this weird sideways crop movement. I put her in the garage with her buddy and will bring her back in this evening so I can be sure that crop is ready for the safeguard again in the morning. I may need to ask for a little more help by next week. Hoping she improves. Thank you so much for your help.

 

[OKhobbit]

I would round off the SafeGuard wormer to 0.25 ml per pound and give her 1 ml for 4 pounds. It is very safe and won’t hurt her. Pull down on her wattles and give 1/2 ml, release to swallow, then repeat with the rest. I would still hold off on an antibiotic since a crop disorder may be fungal. My chickens would usually take a little yogurt mixed with their chicken feed and a little water. I prefer to try and get them to take food on their own. But they need to drink water, and their beaks can be dipped to take water from a small cup up to the beak.

Good evening. I don't know how these chats work very well so I'm replying again to your last post.

Started the Safeguard Saturday and tomorrow morning will be day 4. She still has the doughy thing in her crop and her appetite has decreased for food and water. When I put her out in the garage with the other girl she will eat a little of the crumbles - I think she's trying to do what the other chicken does. She attacks the nipple on the waterer bucket, so when I bring her back in I offer her water in a little bowl where she can drink easily to her heart's delight, if she will drink. She stands a lot in the garage coop with her eyes closed, so when I think she's getting really tired I bring her in.

She lost weight again today. This morning and in the afternoon her poop was watery, with a few things that looked like they could maybe, maybe be yeast? Or maybe really thick urates. No digested food. Hoping in the morning to see more digested food.

This afternoon, worried she's not getting enough nutrition, I gave her .2 ml of Poultry Cell (hope that wasn't too much) and 1 ml of pea baby food down her esophagus. It is always a struggle with her. When in the laundry room, she's refusing to eat. Tried a little applesauce in her crumble and was a no go. Hoping tomorrow will be better. She will eat grit.

On Wednesday (the last Safeguard day) the medistatin is supposed to arrive as well as the crop bra, but the bra isn't my first priority right now. I saw in another post to mix the medistatin in 2 ml of water, so I have 2 ml syringes with tubing arriving tomorrow (I hope).

I also have read about epsom salt flushes. What do you think? I tried giving her one stool softener last week (I think - the days are getting a little confused) and her poop really stunk after that. And we have to think about a possible infection but I have no idea what antibiotic or how to get an antibiotic. I could call my vet but he's not a chicken vet.

Questions:

What is the oral dosage for Poultry Cell? How often should I be giving it to her?

Would she run a fever? Should I be checking for that as well? (She hasn't felt too hot.)

What kind of general antibiotic and how do I get it?

What about an epsom salt flush? What is that procedure? Maybe instead of the medistatin? (Not a lot of confidence in the new med since seven days of miconazole didn't work.)

Should I try the stool softener again? How many, how often, how long?

How much food should she be getting every day? How much water?

This has really been tough on her and me. She started her hard molt about a month ago now and I brought her inside seeing her turn away from food on Dec 29. I've tried to do research, trying to see if there is more I can do for her. These are my first chickens and I have to say, if I knew what I know now, I might not have gone on this journey. The other chicken used to be so sweet and loving and turned into a rooster last summer and is very aggressive toward me now. The chicken I'm caring for never liked to be held, even being raised from a chick like the other one, so that may be why she fights me every time. However, she doesn't bite me!

I am grateful for your help. Will check back with you Tuesday.

Tuesday morning update: She lost 3 oz since yesterday, now 3 lbs 8 oz. Put some honey in warm water this morning and she took a little with much encouragement. She is eating a little crumble this morning. Looks like she just wants to close her eyes and sleep. Fourth Safeguard down the crop this morning. She did have some digested food in her poop this morning, but still runny. Doughy walnut/ping pong ball sized thing still there. Massaged as usual to loosen. With additional water it gets much, much softer. Put her carrier in the sun where it was peeking in the window for a while and she seemed to like it. Was talking to me so that's a good sign. I'm looking for anything positive. Called the vet and put in a request for a general antibiotic so hope to get that the next couple of days.

 

[Eggcessive]

It is good that you are weighing daily. Dosage of Poultry Cell is 1 ml for every 3 pounds up to 3 ml per day. Antibiotics can make crop disorders worse if it is a fungal/yeast infection. If there is a reproductive infection, the antibiotics some use are amoxicillin (aqua Mox found online) or enrofloxacin for pigeons. Does she have access to some granite poultry grit every day to help her gizzard grind feed? I continue to massage the doughy crop downward several times a day to break up the impaction. It can take days for it to break up. Sometimes a reproductive disorder or other illness can slow down digestion. Mushy wet chicken feed, plain yogurt, and watery scrambled egg are all good foods, but no whole grains, scratch, or seeds should be given now. I would use the Medistatin powder by giving it orally in some water, 2-3 times a day. If using stool softener, you can give 1 or 2 a day. I would not use an Epsom salts flush, but some use acidifed copper sulfate with sour crop. I would not use that yet unless it becomes sour. I will try to check in more often, but others may also offer advice.

 

[OKhobbit]

It is good that you are weighing daily. Dosage of Poultry Cell is 1 ml for every 3 pounds up to 3 ml per day. Antibiotics can make crop disorders worse if it is a fungal/yeast infection. If there is a reproductive infection, the antibiotics some use are amoxicillin (aqua Mox found online) or enrofloxacin for pigeons. Does she have access to some granite poultry grit every day to help her gizzard grind feed? I continue to massage the doughy crop downward several times a day to break up the impaction. It can take days for it to break up. Sometimes a reproductive disorder or other illness can slow down digestion. Mushy wet chicken feed, plain yogurt, and watery scrambled egg are all good foods, but no whole grains, scratch, or seeds should be given now. I would use the Medistatin powder by giving it orally in some water, 2-3 times a day. If using stool softener, you can give 1 or 2 a day. I would not use an Epsom salts flush, but some use acidifed copper sulfate with sour crop. I would not use that yet unless it becomes sour. I will try to check in more often, but others may also offer advice.

Yes, she has constant access to grit and oyster shell calcium. She is going more for the grit and I felt it this morning in her crop. That doughy thing is being so stubborn! She freely ate pea baby food yesterday afternoon and I was so excited. She went up 3 oz this morning, still quite a ways to go back to 5.5 pounds. The Medistatin is not going to arrive today, so hoping for tomorrow. Going to town to get more baby food and some plain yogurt this afternoon. Have tried her on many soft foods and she turns up her beak. She is loving the warm honey water. Her eyes looked much better today. Crop has never smelled sour.

I have noticed that the ball in her crop is only in the morning. Once she gets massaged and meds and or water and something to eat it is really liquidy. No ball at all. If she hasn't eaten in a while (late afternoon into evening) it starts to get the ball again.

Do you know how much food she should be getting every day? How much water?

For the Medistatin, I've read to use .34 grams per pound, so optimistically calculating (hoping) she will someday soon be at least 4 lbs (today 3 lbs 11 oz.) it comes to 1.36 grams which I will add to 2 ml of water and will give it to her with the tube. I will try the three times a day since this thing is so stubborn, but it says to have an empty crop which through the day will be a bit of an issue. The days I've seen in different posts to treat are 3, 5, and 7.

How long should I treat her with the Medistatin?

I want the Medistatin to work but if I use the stool softener, maybe late in the evening and wake her before I go to bed to give the softener to her, would this be late enough after the last Medistatin dose about 5-ish? All I know for sure is it will stink pretty bad the next morning.

It is hard to know about any other possible infections, since she's still molting and has the crop issue. I think I have a baby thermometer around somewhere, so maybe I should check the vent temp. I see the vet for one of our cats tomorrow, so I'll talk with him about amoxicillin. Your advice is great.

Thank you for answering my many questions Eggcessive.