Muscovies in US - REGULATION CHANGES OPEN FOR COMMENTS - 10/1 update

[Duck_feeder]

Quote:
Since the dawn of time, all life forms have been moving around the planet and evolving to better adapt, be it birds, insects, fish, humans...Even non-living entities do it: Mountains move and rivers change course. Climate change could certainly be a factor accelerating this process. Dr. Allen, as well as other scientists, say that many species of animals are expanding their natural range northwards. Dr. Allen told me he couldn't say for sure how the Muscovies first got to Texas; he wasn't there when the first ones arrived with their suitcases. Of course it's possible that some people crossed the border and brought Muscovies with them. (This would have put them in the category of “imported” species, like starlings and English Sparrows.) But it’s most likely the birds just ambled over themselves, since they don't exactly pay any mind to geopolitical boundaries.

That's not such a likely scenario in Florida, since we know Muscovies can barely fly across the pasture, let alone across the Gulf of Mexico. I have heard that wild Muscovies are very different in appearance from the ones we know, but I do not know if there is some sort of biological determinant to differentiate. Even if there were, I doubt it would be used in everyday practical applications of policy. Research and its funding will take time, but people want action sooner. This may be why the scientific classifications seem murky now in the regs.

I double checked the final ruling document for the new regulations, and it did cite a document by the American Ornithologists' Union as their reference for the natural range of muscovy ducks in the US.
http://www.aou.org/

This organization claims to be the official source of taxonomy of birds (species). They do not publish information on subspecies but have some information on why they do not:
http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/

I'll do more reading as I have time and post my understanding on the matter. It might be a wild goose chase and amount to nothing but in the very least we may be able to get in contact with a wild muscovy expert to get their perspective on the matter.

For those who are irked because they feel that Dr. Allen wants us to do his work by writing our suggestions for the new regs, keep in mind a few things. In order for this sort of federal regulation to be changed, a comment period must be opened up. As I stated in an earlier post, I don’t know the format nor duration of this comment period. But his requests for our input seem to serve this purpose. Perhaps there were legal loopholes that enabled the process to be accelerated for this unusual case. We should be glad for this because my understanding is that it usually takes a bare minimum of three to six months to get a reg changed and we’ve gotten action in a month.

Also, FWS has a lot more to do than just handling the Muscovy issues. They don’t have endless time and resources to research everything. While these ducks may be a significant part of our personal lives, they are just one of thousands of birds they deal with for their jobs. A greater number of people have posted here on this topic alone than the number of people who work in their division. So yes, they probably could have done more earlier, but they’re trying to fix it now. Our information will help guide them. If you look at the original reg, the comments were categorized by areas of focus, and in some cases were even quoted or paraphrased.

While everyone is certainly free to gripe about past mistakes and to speculate on agendas, it does not practically advance our cause and could even hinder it. We can and have made a difference by sharing our concerns and knowledge with the FWS. So please use your energy and resources in a positive way to affect the outcome in a way that satisfies everyone.

As always you provide a voice of reason.

 

[Duck_feeder]

I did a bit more digging and apparently for birds, plumage and/or measurements can be used to distinguish a subspecies as long as they are geographically discrete.

The American Ornithologists’ Union is the authority on this matter and here is their position on subspecies.
http://www.aou.org/committees/nacc/subspecies.php

I'll continue looking into the feasibility of getting domesticated muscovies reclassified as a new subspecies. This is the type of scientific evidence that would carry a lot of weight with the FWS as domesticated birds are not covered by the MBTA.

 

[Mac_]

I sent an e-mail this morning to a "wild Muscovy researcher" on just this topic earlier this morning. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

That said, don't underestimate the power of persuasion that might be possible by writing your senators and congress, as they fund the FWS.

Mac_

 

[Duck_feeder]

Quote:
Absolutely! Just a reminder to those that haven't contacted their reps yet, you can track down the contact info using the links on the first page of this thread (waaaaay down there... used to be at the top of that lost.

)

 

[Captain Cluck]

RE my post about size & color being determining factors in domestic vs wild - I Should have said that domestic animals' size, color and other physical characteristics (and temperament) can be Controlled by selective breeding, whereas wild animals of the same species will most of the time be a standard size, color etc with minor variations.

Think of zebras, true wild asses and Przewalski's wild horse (Mongolian wild horse) - they are all marked very similarly and pretty much the same size. They don't change much pover the generations, ergo, wild.
However the "wild" horses in the US and Australia (mustangs & brumbies) are actually feral descendants of domestic horses - many different colors, more variations, etc - just running loose for a couple of hundred years.

Since breeders of domestic muscovies can and do control the color and size of the birds - as evidenced by the multiple colors available and the larger size of the muscovies raised for the table.

I wonder if the "wild" muscovy can be tamed and if they produce color mutations when selectively bred, or is a cross of wild and domestic muscovy a mule?

(and my personal opinion is that the birds in Texas are no more native than the ones in Florida. they are just living closer to the border is all. Haven't Muscovy ducks been in the continental US for over 100 years? I thought I read somewhere where that they were here being raised by the native populace when the Spanish Landed?

meh- maybe I'm wrong.)

I do agree that we need to keep letting FWS and Mr Allen know what we think and how we use our birds, whether for companionship, eggs, exhibition or meat.

 

[muscovychef]

Parrot chick, I am well aware of what must be done , and should have been done. To do research on muscovy one only has to google the breed , That does not take months, nor weeks, nor days, a few hours .REGUARDLESS of how much a work load the man has. I would expect more out of a grade schooler , than the progress that hes made. In less than an hour you can find enough to know What thousands of people are telling him.Yes he needs feed back. But for the responce I dont know or didnt know ...... Does not fly just like domestic muscovy.. There is no way you can not know muscovy are a popular breed for meat and show ring. With a computer at hand. I am no puter wizz and I research all the time.I can not see how im in the wrong to expect him to do an hours research on the breed...........

Please he is Working on the law you cant tell me he doesnt use the computer To google investments. I do not find that my expectation for him to do some research on a breed for a regulation he is writing to be unfounded . In this day and age this is unexceptable ...............
And to be asking for how a regulation should be worded to thousands who respond Time wasting. If he reads them . Ive read many responces and they are the same ubless you add big government to it, than you get a side line.

It wasnt that long ago the board suggestion was to let him write and stop emailing now its back to emailing him again.

From the feed back im getting its done but the final write.

It would seem to me , the fool I must be , That first doing some research I would than write a draft of the regulation and submit it to review to the public for fine tuning and responce.

 

[Mac_]

Captain,

Below are my notes from online research regarding the history of Muscovy domestication.

I attached this info to my e-mail to George Allen.

Mac_



Results of online research regarding the history of the domestication of the Muscovy

"Muscovy Ducks had been domesticated by various Native American cultures in the New World when Columbus arrived. The first few were brought to Europe by the European explorers at least by the 1500s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscovy_Duck


"The muscovy duck (Cairina moschata) was domesticated in Colombia and Peru before the arrival of the conquistadores."

http://www.britannica.com/facts/5/25314/Muscovy-duck-as-discussed-in-anseriform-bird-order


"HISTORY mentioned L'Hist nat des Oyseaux p 176 fol. Paris published 1545 then being mainly black variegated with other colours ie wild colouration.Confirmation source 'The Poultry Yard' by Peter Boswell"


http://www.domestic-waterfowl.co.uk/mozzie.htm


This is a link to a page from 'Poultry Breeding and Genetics' by R. D. Crawford. This traces domestication back to the 1500s and through Africa, Taiwan, France, etc.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VM...nepage&q=Muscovy domestication France&f=false


"When the first American poultry show was staged in Boston in 1849, three people exhibited Muscovies. In 1874, when the first American Standard of Perfection was compiled, the White Muscovy was included, even though colored birds were more common."

http://books.google.com/books?id=DD...resnum=2&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false



How long have hatcheries been selling domestic Muscovies in the United States? The following are my notes from a brief online attempt to answer this question.

Grimaud Farms, California

Grimaud Farms parent company has been raising Muscovy ducks since 1965, with breeding stock from France.

"A breed apart
Originating in the warm climates of South America, the Muscovy duck is a breed apart from the rest. It is by far the leanest domesticated duck breed. Long the favorite of Europeans, Muscovy now the duck of choice here in the United States.

All natural
Groupe Grimaud, our former parent company, has been raising Muscovy ducks since 1965. To take advantage of all this experience and ensure the genetic quality of our products, (French consultants continue to visit our operations every year). The birds are barn-raised without the use of steroids, antibiotics or growth hormones. We don't hurry nature: we grow our ducks for 70-85 days compared to 42-45 days for most Pekin ducks. This allows the bird to fully mature. Feed is carefully selected for a balanced diet and for the best possible yield and flavor."

http://www.grimaudfarms.com/duck.htm

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J M Hatchery sells Muscovies from breeding stock from France.

"Muscovy Ducks originated in Brazil and were domesticated in Europe. White Muscovy Ducks are best suitable for meat production and make up 90% of commercial production of duck meat. J.M. Hatchery uses breeding stock from France that has been genetically improved to produce birds that are 50% larger than other Muscovies. The males can weigh 12 pounds in 12 weeks. The meat is less greasy and with a lower fat content than other ducks. They are known to have a sense of humor, are intelligent, and love to fly."



http://www.jmhatchery.com/ducks/white-muscovy-ducks/prod_4.html

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Ridgway Hatchery sells Muscovies.

http://www.ridgwayhatchery.com/ducks.htm

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McMurray Hatchery has been selling Muscovy eggs for over 20 years.

http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/assorted_muscovy_duck_eggs.html

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The above info is from just the first few results from googling "hatchery muscovy".

Results of google search for "hatcheries muscovy":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...tnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 

[Parrotchick]

Quote:
Just because a plant or animal has been present and thriving for a long time does not make it native. The Quaker (Monk) Parrot is doing well in some locales (NYC!), but it hardly makes this tropical bird native. Starlings and English sparrows have been here for 200 years but aren't native. Many of these species are considered invasive because they "take over" and do not have enough natural predators to keep their numbers in biological balance.

On the other hand, white-tailed deer are not considered invasive, per-se because they are naturally occurring in the US. However, humans have wiped out their natural predators (such as wolves) and encroached on their habitats, leaving more deer and less space for them. Humans get annoyed that the deer jump in front of their cars and eat their flowers and oh by the way they don’t taste bad. Voila! You get a regulated hunting season. This is where they are probably going with the “pest” ducks issue. You can’t shoot the deer that jumps in front of your car a block from the elementary school and you won’t be able to blow the bird out of its feathers on the golf course either, but people will feel better that they’re attempting to keep the numbers down. (To this end, I’d like to see suggestions to Dr. Allen regarding humane ways to deal with the “problem” ducks since it’s not honestly their numbers that are the issue)

I don't know the exact scientific criteria for determining if an entity is "native, but I'm sure it has to do with said plant or animal being in that locale in significant enough numbers for a certain amount of time (a couple hundred years is diddly in scientific terms). Those plants or animals would had to have gone to and stayed in whatever location themselves for the evolutionary benefit of the species, not because humans specifically relocated them.

So let's say "wild" Muscovies have say been in Central America for a million years, and in the area we call Mexico for half a million years, and in Texas for ten years. Since Muscovies could not swim or fly any appreciable distance, it is highly unlikely that they naturally migrated, ie waddled, all the way to Florida from Texas in that short period of time. Thus the muscovies in those 3 Texas counties are considered native and can't be messed with. The others are considered "introduced" and will fall under applicable laws. For this reason, you are allowed to have a pet starling (trivia-they are cousins of Mynah birds, are very smart, and can learn to talk) but you cannot have a pet Blue Jay, or technically, even a Box turtle.

I'm no scientist, just an occasional hair splitter :> but perhaps Duck_feeder or others with science backgrounds can parse out some useful definitions to help everyone understand. It definitely can be confusing when words such as “protected”, “domestic” and “migratory” have different meanings when used scientifically from the looser understanding we have from daily use in the vernacular. Keep in mind that the folks at FWS are first and foremost scientists, not politicians, so they prefer to work with concrete definitions and hard, fact driven data. They know we’re not typically scientists, but if we make a bit of an effort to understand their language, without jumping the gun on their assumptions because of the words they use, communication will flow better. Educating ourselves a bit is the least we can do if we want to continue whatever it is we each do with Muscovies and even save some of the ones that may need our help.

That being said, as a total aside, wild mallards are a political thorn in the side of FWS. FWS would like to handle all wild mallard issues in a scientifically sound manner as they feel fit, but certain special interests are so wealthy and powerful as to interfere with their mission (think of the duck hunting lobby, a la Dick Cheney to get an idea what they’re up against).

 

[Mac_]

Duck Feeder,


Donkin R. A. 1989 - Cairina moshcata domestica: Origins, Dispersal and Associated Apsects of the Geography of Domestication

A. A. Balkema Publishers

B. R. Rotterdam


Also,

"Cairina moschata domestica" - Google Search (An awful lot of hits.)

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...tica"&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Gotta do chores.

Mac_

 

[Captain Cluck]

Thank you for those clarifications.


AHA! I was right! Muscovies are Not native birds, they are Domestic Imported birds like almost all the other farm birds in the US. Chickens? Imported. Cows? Imported. Geese? Sheep? Pigs? Horses? White, Black & Hispanic people? Imported (naturally occurring populations excluded).

I think the government should have better things to do than to regulate farm animals and pets.

*sigh*

Once it starts, where will it end? No budgies? No cows? No puppies? No kids?