My Breeding Project and Help with the Genetics

[MeanCheek]

I have several second and third generation mutt hens that I would like to start a breed with. Sadly though, I can't understand genetics to save my life.
Parents and grandparents include; d'Anvers, Bantam Cochins, Bantam EEs, maybe a LF Leghorn, and possibly a Silkie. They are a larger bantam size with beautiful feathers, and some lay blue/green eggs. Most of them have lightly feathered shanks, what I think is a Pea Comb, and muffs.

Things I want to keep:
The colored eggs
The Pea Comb
The gorgeous feathers
The size
Their broodiness
And their cold hardiness

Things I don't want:
The muffs
And their feathered feet

Things I'd like to add (Suggestions welcome):
Maybe a tassel/very small crest, but that's in no way a priority

Roosters that could be used: Pyncheon, Spitzhauben, OEGB, and a Bantam Wyandotte.


How do we get rid of the muffs and feathered feet? Those are dominate, correct? Which roo is best to use?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Leg feathering is actually caused by several genes that produce feathering on different parts of the leg, most dominant but some recessive. Crossing feathered legs to clean legs over generations can result in a whole spectrum of different leg feathering amounts, and those recessive genes can pop back up later unexpectedly. Cochins are unfortunately one of the breeds that should have most of the known leg feathering genes, giving them their gloriously fluffy legs, but that means it'll be a bit of an uphill battle to get rid of them with Cochins in the background of your birds. The best you can do is to just keep selecting for sparse or no leg feathering in your offspring and hope that recessive genes don't pop back up later.

As for muffs, they're caused by a dominant gene that's pretty easy to get rid of if you want it gone. Your birds, being crosses, should only carry one copy of the gene, so half of their offspring with a clean-faced bird will be clean-faced as well. Breed only clean-faced birds and the muffs will not reappear.

Regarding which rooster to use, I would count out the Spitz and the Wyandotte as they'll both bring in comb genes that you don't want and don't really have any other advantageous traits to counteract that hassle. Between the Pyncheon and the OEGB, you'll have to choose based on whether you decide you do want a crest, and based on size as well. I have no experience with Pyncheons so I can't comment on anything from them beyond their visible attributes, but I'd lean toward using the Pyncheon rooster based on what your goals are.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

How would I "stabilize" the "incomplete Quail?
What would the easiest color to get them to breed true as be? That is a very confusing sentence, sorry.

The thing with 'incomplete' patterns is that they often come from heterozygous gene pairs. Basically because they are from a mix of patterns and may only have one 'correct' gene out of each possible plumage gene pair that would make up a specific pattern. In this case rather than having Co/Co and Ml/Ml to make a quail pattern, they might have Co/co+ and Ml/ml+, as an example. When you then breed birds with incomplete patterns, they might pass some of the correct genes and some of the incorrect genes on, with a huge number of different combinations possible. So, in the example I gave with Co/co+ and Ml/ml+, the offspring could be Co/co+ Ml/ml+ like the parents, but they could also be Co/Co Ml/Ml, Co/co+ Ml/Ml, co+/co+ Ml/Ml, Co/Co Ml/ml+, Co/Co ml+/ml+, Co/co+ ml+/ml+, co+/co+ Ml/ml+, or co+co+ ml+/ml+. As you can see, that's far from breeding true--and I only considered two genes here, not the numerous others that might be at play! A lot of these pairings would look similar to your birds because of the dominance of the genes, but you would still have the issue of them not breeding true for future generations. I think if you want a pattern similar to those birds that does breed true, your best bet is to just go for quail patterning.

As for blending in, it really depends on your environmental conditions, like U_Stormcrow pointed out. There's always the classic wildtype partridge (the pattern that Light Brown Leghorns have, for example) as the standby for a color that blends in well, though. It worked for camouflage for wild junglefowl after all!

 

[NatJ]

@NatJ you're amazing with genetics, what would the above hens crossed with a mille fleur Pyncheon roo look like?

I think @pipdzipdnreadytogo pretty much covered it before I got here

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

@NatJ you're amazing with genetics, what would the above hens crossed with a mille fleur Pyncheon roo look like?

I'm not NatJ, but as I recall, mille fleur is basically gold Columbian with mottling. Mottling is a recessive gene, so none of the first generation cross will be mille fleur, but all of them will carry mottling. You should see some individuals that are incomplete quail like the hens and some that are gold Columbian or incomplete gold Columbian, and some might have inherited blue as well depending on the hen.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Where did you come up with that name?

Since I can't have Clay Ranger, how does everyone like "Sampetran" or "Sampetra"? Or maybe a family name.

Well {blah} Ranger was all the rage, and I have clay soils I'm trying to select birds to forage on, so...

(also, i checked the trademarks, and its not taken!) So I'm putting it in use, in the community, until I register it.

 

[NatJ]

How many generations until they breed true?

After you quit crossing in other things, and just breed them to each other, it will still take at least a few generations to get them breeding true. The more chicks you hatch, and the more selectively you cull, the fewer generations it will take. I would expect at least 3 to 5 generations in the best case. But with a reasonable number of chicks each year, you could easily be at this for a decade or more.

Another thing I really like about them is that they are plump little things. Still a bantam, but they feel like they have quite a bit of meat.

I do think they would be best crossed with a Pyncheon, but I think that will decrease size which I don't really like.

I would very much like to add in Spitzhauben. Spitz are almost perfectly suited for my climate, and I think they would increase size and foraging abilities.

The Spitz and Pynch crosses would also be able to fly better, which I would love.

So, I think cross my hens with a Spitz (silver spangled or gold spangled?) then cross hens from that mix to a Pynch roo and roos from that mix to; a Spitz? A Pynch? Back to the parents?

Why so many extra roosters? Maybe cross one rooster to your best hen, her son to the next best hen, her son to the next best hen, her son back to the first best hen... Some such pattern would focus on the genes you already have, know, and like.

If you cross to a new rooster, the chicks get half their genes from him, and half from their mother. Crossing those chicks to another new rooster leaves you with only 1/4 of genes from your original stock. And the more generations you breed from new roosters, the less genes you have from your original birds.

If you are crossing in a Spitzhauben, think about whether you want gold-based chickens or silver-based chickens, and choose the rooster accordingly.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I share your pain - my culling project is HERE. I don't understand genetics either, so I'm doing it the "old fashioned" (pre-Mendel) way. Also, my birds free range, so as a practical matter, there is no controlled breeding, only egg selection and controlling future breedings by culling unwanteds.

I can help on the feathered feet, a little. The gene is incompletely dominant. If only one copy is present, the feet will be feathered, yes - but less feathered than a double gened bird. Its obvious at birth, and can become less obvious with time. I used Brahma in my project, who have the double gene - I wanted the pattern (its a struggle), and was hoping for the size (that didn't happen), but to get rid of the feathered feet, which aren't suited for my climate or my clay soils.

Its slow going, but I'm working on other targets as well. A more focused approach and I'd have them largely eliminated in two years.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Leg feathering is actually caused by several genes that produce feathering on different parts of the leg, most dominant but some recessive. Crossing feathered legs to clean legs over generations can result in a whole spectrum of different leg feathering amounts, and those recessive genes can pop back up later unexpectedly. Cochins are unfortunately one of the breeds that should have most of the known leg feathering genes, giving them their gloriously fluffy legs, but that means it'll be a bit of an uphill battle to get rid of them with Cochins in the background of your birds. The best you can do is to just keep selecting for sparse or no leg feathering in your offspring and hope that recessive genes don't pop back up later.

As for muffs, they're caused by a dominant gene that's pretty easy to get rid of if you want it gone. Your birds, being crosses, should only carry one copy of the gene, so half of their offspring with a clean-faced bird will be clean-faced as well. Breed only clean-faced birds and the muffs will not reappear.

Regarding which rooster to use, I would count out the Spitz and the Wyandotte as they'll both bring in comb genes that you don't want and don't really have any other advantageous traits to counteract that hassle. Between the Pyncheon and the OEGB, you'll have to choose based on whether you decide you do want a crest, and based on size as well. I have no experience with Pyncheons so I can't comment on anything from them beyond their visible attributes, but I'd lean toward using the Pyncheon rooster based on what your goals are.

and here I learn a bit more. Thank you @pipdzipdnreadytogo !

 

[NatJ]

All you smart genetic people,
what would the easiest color to get my mutts to breed true as be?

It partly depends on what you already have.
It also depends on whether you want them to be a color that is recognized in other breeds of chickens, or whether you just want them to look alike other.

One possible path: look at what color they are when they hatch, pick the most common appearance, and track how those chicks look when they grow up. Decide whether that appearance will suit you. Chick appearance is controlled by some of the same genes that control the adult color (some, not all), so picking ones that look alike as chicks can give you a head start on having them look alike as adults. And of course it's much easier to hatch a large number of chicks and pick through them than to hatch the same number and raise them all the way to adulthood before you can make your choices!

Or if you're going to use the Pyncheon rooster, you could decide to match his color. After you have some daughters from him, breed them back to him and select the ones most like him in color. The disadvantage I see is that will also give chicks with more of his other genes, rather than the genes you like best from your mutts, so maybe not the best way to do it. I have seen some chickens with white mottling that were very well camouflaged, and some that were not, so I don't know whether that trait will be one you want in your birds or not.

Edit to add another idea: you could ignore color for now, and stabilize the other traits you want. Then see what colors you have at that point. There will probably be some color that is most common, and a few ones that are obviously different. So you could work with the ones that look most alike, and not the oddballs. As an example of how this works, flocks of Easter Eggers in the US are typically not bred for any specific feather color, just egg production, but the flock from a given hatchery will often produce many birds that look similar, and the flock from another hatchery will look different from the first but similar to each other. It's not exact, but there definitely are resemblances.

How would I "stabilize" the "incomplete Quail?

As @pipdzipdnreadytogo already explained, you can't stabilize the incomplete form. But you might be able to stabilize a complete quail color pattern, or one that is pure for a slightly different set of genes even if it's a color that has no name.