My Salmon Faverolles Pullet is Black - Help Me Understand the Genetics

[ChickieChickieMama]

Well she's a salmon, but a poorly marked one. I'd almost call her a mahogany, but that it is the name for spangled Russian Orloffs without the mottling.

It's interesting you bring up Spangled Russian Orloff, as her best friend is one and they look remarkably alike!

 

[ChickieChickieMama]

Well she's a salmon, but a poorly marked one. I'd almost call her a mahogany, but that it is the name for spangled Russian Orloffs without the mottling.

And from everything I've seen online, this seems to be what a Mahogany Faverolles looks like...so still the same primary pattern.

Feathersite.com does list a bird they call a Blue Salmon Faverolles, that has a blue chest, which is the first I've seen a darker chest on an otherwise red toned Faverolles...

...but the primary pattern is still very different from the dark girls we've been seeing.

 

[9SpiceyChickens]

I have a darling little 13 week old Salmon Faverolles pullet whose peculiar colouring has been keeping me up at night, researching her genetics.

If it was just her, I would put it aside as a bad breeding fluke, but the more I've talked about her online the more similar SF pullets I've discovered so I really want to understand what's going on here and would love any illumination on the subject!

She's only hatchery quality, from Ideal Poultry, and it seems as though most (though not all) of the similar pullets I've heard of are also from Ideal. This is my girl, Vera, from when I got her (about three days old) to today at 13 weeks and one day, and if anyone else with a similar girl would like to post their pics here for reference too, please do!

This is the link to my thread where a number of others have chimed in about their own experiences, but none of us know enough about SF specific genetics to figure out this mystery!

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...rolles-a-roo-or-just-a-strange-color.1262312/

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Ok could be just me but she looks a lot like a easteer egger. Anyone agree?

 

[keesmom]

Your pullet isn't a mix. I think the lack of selecting for proper coloration for so long (I've seen mismarked ones from them as far back as a decade ago) has resulted in birds that deviate significantly from the standard.

Haha... you're in trouble then.... when I talk to myself, my wife answers back, then I tell her I'm talking to myself not her, and she tells me and myself both to pipe down!

So I was reading up on some of the genetics of Wheaten and Salmon Faverolles, and one of the things I'm picking up on is that to get those light colored hens with no "smut" in the beards and hackle you have to breed in one direction, and to get roosters with those dark beards and breasts you have to breed in the other direction.

Kind of like breeds such as laced wyandottes where breeders keep 2 lines if they are showing both roosters and hens, because the hens are bred for the lacing which makes them very light, and the roosters are intended to be darker with less lacing.

So in reading up on this, I'm starting to thing that the dark pullets that some hatcheries are producing is likely coming from some very striking well marked roosters. Apparently to get the really light salmon fav hens, you want roosters that are a bit poorly marked with some white in their beards, and so on.

See this post where saladin speaks of using "Smut wheaten pullets" to get a rooster with a good solid black breast:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/recessive-wheaten-question.553141/page-4#post-7126428

This was a big discussion on the Faverolles thread a few years ago. A couple of breeders were very much for double mating Faverolles, while others were definitely against. Personally I was against, but take that with a grain of salt. My mentor thought it was a good idea to try (and he's had 30+ years of experience with the breed).

The males I had that produced the lightest female offspring were very light in the wingbow - gold instead of mahogany. They tended to have white creep into their breast as they aged. Not something I prefer.

Another topic of discussion was the "burn spot" on the neck of males. It's a darker patch of feathers on either side of the neck. Some hate them, others don't care. Darker mahogany males tend to have this "burn spot" while their lighter brothers do not.

Faverolles are difficult to breed correctly. It takes a lot of patience.

 

[keesmom]

And from everything I've seen online, this seems to be what a Mahogany Faverolles looks like...so still the same primary pattern.
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Feathersite.com does list a bird they call a Blue Salmon Faverolles, that has a blue chest, which is the first I've seen a darker chest on an otherwise red toned Faverolles...

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...but the primary pattern is still very different from the dark girls we've been seeing.

She isn't a mahogany or a blue salmon.

Over the years I've had bantam salmon/blue salmon/splash salmon, solid splash, blue, black, white and buff Favs. LF salmon, blue, black and ermine project birds.

With blue or splash salmon females, the differentiation in color is in the underfluff and wing/tail tips. Splash salmon females will have white underfluff and wing/tail tips. Blue salmons will have blue grey (often difficult to distinguish from salmon). Blue salmon males are obvious - blue where black should be. Splash salmon males are white with splashes of blue, black, and rusty red.

Mahogany females have a darker, richer shade of salmon on the chest and back. Mahogany males have gold/red where the silver is on the salmons.

 

[keesmom]

Splash salmon pair:

 

[Amer]

So do you have any thoughts on what's going on genetically?

Not everything can be explained by genetics. To get a nice silver lace on a Wyandotte, breeders work towards it, they don't get their birds dna tested, because every bird in the flock would be genetically the same in Wyandottes. I assume smuttiness is the same in wheaten and salmon because I have had clear salmon Favorellles hens and smutty ones, as well as with Ameraucana pullets.

 

[Amer]

Ok could be just me but she looks a lot like a easteer egger. Anyone agree?

She is not. She has all of the features of a Favorelles.

 

[9SpiceyChickens]

Ok! I´m not very good at this sooooo...

 

[OhZark Biddies]

Not everything can be explained by genetics.

I concur, but I’m hopeful there are some genetic experts that might be able to look at the pullet in question, as well as similar salmon favs with smuttyness and know what genes could be at play, is it melanotic, charcoal, a combo of both, something else, etc?

Your silver laced example is a case of working to improve a pattern, where the genetics involved are known and well understood, so I’m not certain that example is applicable.

I doubt breeders are sending off for DNA testing, but maybe, I dunno?

More typically breeders that are working to develop new varieties will do a test cross with a bird in question to genetically known bird in order to then know what they’re working with genetically, by what turns up in the off spring.

The smuttyness in Wheaton hens seems to be a known issue, so again we’re just hoping to learn what is at play genetically here... and maybe even if it could be useful in creating something new.