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Post #41
"The true Appleyard genotype is light phase restricted Mallard (m^r/m^r, li/li). Most Appleyard Calls that I have seen do not carry the restricted genes. My suspicion is that most are light phase wild-type (m+/m+, li/li), but there are undoubtedly some that are harlequin phase wild type (m+/m+, li^h/li^h) or split to harlequin phase wild-type (m+/m+, li/li^h). Anyway, most (if any) are not the true Appleyard color with the signs of restricted Mallard and the gene that creates the mask, which is probably a gene closely related to the restrictor gene (not all large fowl Appleyards even carry that gene). The Appleyard Calls though in general are *very* close to being the correct genotype and some may be the correct genotype entirely. The Miniature Appleyards are not even remotely the correct genotype for Appleyard, they are the Snowy/UK Silver genotype, but everyone already knows this.
This brings me to how to tell the difference between Snowy Calls and Silver Appleyard Calls, as I said, with the drakes it is going to be much easier in the eclipse plumage. The main difference between Snowy and Appleyard (including all the "pseudo-Appleyard" types I mentioned above) is going to be the addition of the dusky alleles (m^d/m^d). Snowies of correct genotype are pure for dusky and pure for harlequin phase. The dusky genes obscure the eye stripes and can give the hens a slightly hooded appearance. This is why Snowy hens and Appleyard hens look radically different. The Appleyard hens should have distinct eye stripes. Likewise, the drakes in eclipse plumage should also have distinct eye stripes. Anything other than that suggests dusky is involved. Ducklings that should be kept for breeding would be those that are yellow with distinct dark "mohawks" typical for Appleyards (good luck breeding any of them since most don't carry restricted Mallard, LOL) or those that have the wild-type Mallard pattern with excess yellow connecting the dorsal spots (like Mrs. Turbo posted) indicating they are light phase. Ducklings that are yellow with a dusting of smokey color over other parts of the body (google images of Silver Welsh Harlequin or Silver bantam ducklings) should be culled as pets and not used for breeding as that would strongly suggest the involvement of dusky (again, the ducklings that are harlequin phase wild-type, but not dusky-based, are also incorrect color but hard to weed out).
So, to paraphrase to make this simpler to understand-
1. Breed only from hens that have distinct eye-stripes.
2. Breed only from drakes that have distinct eye-stripes in eclipse plumage.
3. Breed from ducklings that are either yellow with a mohawk or look like Mallard ducklings with excess yellow.
4. Cull (as pets) any birds that have obscured eye-stripes or ducklings that resemble Snowies or WH.
5. Select for white facial markings in the drakes if you are lucky enough to have it pop up in your flock as it is related to the desired restricted Mallard. (Editing to add- This is only if your desire is to breed for the true and correct Silver Appleyard genotype. Not everyone has that goal and lots of lines of large fowl SA do not even have this).
6. Select for birds also that have excess white in the bend of the wing as this also indicates restricted Mallard (these will be the yellow mohawked ducklings).
I don't think any Call breeders have yet perfected the color to this point in the Silver Appleyards and type is obviously an issue as well. They are a work in progress, but there are some beautiful birds out there. They are definitely established enough that someone could take them on and improve them rapidly at this point. The earlier breeders have done a great job of doing the hard work of getting the variety started and I'm sure have other notes on what to look for that I have not mentioned. The Calls are certainly much farther along with this color than those of us breeding a true Mini are. With the Calls, there are other things to look for once the basic color/pattern is achieved, like the subtle differences between light phase and harlequin phase, but that is the least of the worries at this point in getting the color correct."
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/silver-appleyard-versus-snowy.308832/page-5
"The true Appleyard genotype is light phase restricted Mallard (m^r/m^r, li/li). Most Appleyard Calls that I have seen do not carry the restricted genes. My suspicion is that most are light phase wild-type (m+/m+, li/li), but there are undoubtedly some that are harlequin phase wild type (m+/m+, li^h/li^h) or split to harlequin phase wild-type (m+/m+, li/li^h). Anyway, most (if any) are not the true Appleyard color with the signs of restricted Mallard and the gene that creates the mask, which is probably a gene closely related to the restrictor gene (not all large fowl Appleyards even carry that gene). The Appleyard Calls though in general are *very* close to being the correct genotype and some may be the correct genotype entirely. The Miniature Appleyards are not even remotely the correct genotype for Appleyard, they are the Snowy/UK Silver genotype, but everyone already knows this.
This brings me to how to tell the difference between Snowy Calls and Silver Appleyard Calls, as I said, with the drakes it is going to be much easier in the eclipse plumage. The main difference between Snowy and Appleyard (including all the "pseudo-Appleyard" types I mentioned above) is going to be the addition of the dusky alleles (m^d/m^d). Snowies of correct genotype are pure for dusky and pure for harlequin phase. The dusky genes obscure the eye stripes and can give the hens a slightly hooded appearance. This is why Snowy hens and Appleyard hens look radically different. The Appleyard hens should have distinct eye stripes. Likewise, the drakes in eclipse plumage should also have distinct eye stripes. Anything other than that suggests dusky is involved. Ducklings that should be kept for breeding would be those that are yellow with distinct dark "mohawks" typical for Appleyards (good luck breeding any of them since most don't carry restricted Mallard, LOL) or those that have the wild-type Mallard pattern with excess yellow connecting the dorsal spots (like Mrs. Turbo posted) indicating they are light phase. Ducklings that are yellow with a dusting of smokey color over other parts of the body (google images of Silver Welsh Harlequin or Silver bantam ducklings) should be culled as pets and not used for breeding as that would strongly suggest the involvement of dusky (again, the ducklings that are harlequin phase wild-type, but not dusky-based, are also incorrect color but hard to weed out).
So, to paraphrase to make this simpler to understand-
1. Breed only from hens that have distinct eye-stripes.
2. Breed only from drakes that have distinct eye-stripes in eclipse plumage.
3. Breed from ducklings that are either yellow with a mohawk or look like Mallard ducklings with excess yellow.
4. Cull (as pets) any birds that have obscured eye-stripes or ducklings that resemble Snowies or WH.
5. Select for white facial markings in the drakes if you are lucky enough to have it pop up in your flock as it is related to the desired restricted Mallard. (Editing to add- This is only if your desire is to breed for the true and correct Silver Appleyard genotype. Not everyone has that goal and lots of lines of large fowl SA do not even have this).
6. Select for birds also that have excess white in the bend of the wing as this also indicates restricted Mallard (these will be the yellow mohawked ducklings).
I don't think any Call breeders have yet perfected the color to this point in the Silver Appleyards and type is obviously an issue as well. They are a work in progress, but there are some beautiful birds out there. They are definitely established enough that someone could take them on and improve them rapidly at this point. The earlier breeders have done a great job of doing the hard work of getting the variety started and I'm sure have other notes on what to look for that I have not mentioned. The Calls are certainly much farther along with this color than those of us breeding a true Mini are. With the Calls, there are other things to look for once the basic color/pattern is achieved, like the subtle differences between light phase and harlequin phase, but that is the least of the worries at this point in getting the color correct."
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/silver-appleyard-versus-snowy.308832/page-5
But, yeah, what the heck, eh? I have been scratching my head...
