Never Encourage a teacher -What I know about color genetics Lesson #2A

[Illia]

Quote:
I believe you're thinking of dun perhaps?

If not, dun is a good one to mention.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
If I could add one thing here,

Mahogany doesn't completely restrict black.
In the case of Rhode Island Reds both Male and Female will continue to have Black in the Tail, Lower Web, Secondaries and Primary Coverts of the wings, Females will have Black ticking in the hackle.

Chris

 

[Illia]

When does it restrict black? Curious.

 

[greenscape]

Ok found this today, where is part 1

 

[mibirder]

Part 1 was a separate post. someone suggested just adding new replies rather than new topics, so that's what I did after part 1.

Dave

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
IF Mahogany does restrict black on the Rhode Island Red it is only restricting Black on the Males Hackles.


Chris

 

[mibirder]

Regarding Mh, here is what Van Dort et als had to say in their book:

"... It darkens Red in both rooster and hen. Meantime it extends Red and restricts the distribution of Black. Mh has therefore a Columbian like action.
It removes Black from the breast of the rooster and hen and causes a kind of black spangling. Mh also gives red on the shoulders, back, and wingbow a deep dark red colour in the rooster. The salmon breats of the Duckwing "(my note that's e+ based)" hen also becomes dark red red in the presence of Mh, as in Red Duckwing."

When she referred to to the "Columbian like action" I think she is referring to idea of restricting black to the ends of the chicken, ie neck and tail areas. Mh restricts the black from the "front end, but it is still present on the "back" end in the RI Red (Remember that RI Reds are eWh based and "normally" have black breast, primaries, main tail and sickles.). Reeder in "An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl" also has a (similar) discussion of the Mh affect for the RI Red and the similar New Hampshire that lists the genes for them.

Did I get that right?

Dave

Edit: As Chris pointed out, this would be for the males. The females, however, do have the black restricted on the breast.

 

[mibirder]

Quote:
I believe you're thinking of dun perhaps?

If not, dun is a good one to mention.

From what I read, Dull Black and Dun are not same thing. Dull Black is one of these "under study" situations (not even enough know to give it a symbol yet). It is described as black without sheen on the feathers. Many breeders put Dull Black in with the "Recessive Black" group. Van Dort et als (yes, I do rely on this book most of the time with support from others.) describe it as an "autosomal recessive (on both roosters and hens). Dull Black is, as the name says, dull, there is no obvious beetle green or violet sheen. . . "

Dun, on the other hand is a known allele of Dominant White and is incompletely dominant.

I hatched a bunch of B/B/S bantam cochins this year and noticed that some of the "darkest" ones don't have the sheen that others do and was wonder if, fact, this is due to Dull Black or if they were just really dark "blues". (I suspect just really dark blues) I think doing some further crosses would figure it out, but I have a lot of birds right now.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:

Remember that RI Reds are eWh based and "normally" have black breast, primaries, main tail and sickles.

I mean no disrespect but, shouldn't the the Rhode Island Red be E+/E+ based do to the Black Breasted Malay (Red Malay) being used?
The majority of the Black was removed from the Black Breasted fowl by adding the Columbian (Co) gene which was done by crossing to a Shanghai fowl (Brahma) before Mahogany/ Red color was add and if you "remove" the Mahogany/ Red color from the Rhode Island Red what you are left with a Columbian partnered fowl.

I will also say that I believe that Mahogany does a better job covers up the Black in the Rhode Island Red than it does in restricting it. I say this because the hackles of a Red are for the most part always a little darken than the rest of the body and with some breeding you can add Black hackles to the fowl with out lighting the Mahogany/ Red color.

The females, however, do have the black restricted on the breast.

What Black is it restricting? Neither the Black Breasted Red or the Wheaten hens have a Black Breast.

Chris​

 

[BayouPoules]

Great thread,. I love learning!!!,.