Never Encourage a teacher -What I know about color genetics Lesson #2A

THE BONE OF CONTENTION HACKLE TICKING
By GEORGE SCOTT, F.Z.S. Hon. Secretary of and Club Judge to the
British Rhode Island Red Club.

Despite the oft-expressed opinions of both English and American authorities to the very positive contrary, there is a whole batch of fanciers who will, because the standard calls for a clear hackle in the male and a ticked hackle in the female, persist in the idea that double mating is essential to success. On the face of things I am free to own that this view would appear to be entirely correct. But let
us adjust our spectacles and look a little deeper. The Rhode Island Red is not, as many people are remarkably fond of asserting, a self-colored fowl. It carries in plain view certain prominent, distinct, and well-defined black markings. Experience, of a most painful kind, has pointed out with no uncertain finger that these black markings are essential to the production and retention of the desirable
rich, deep red body color. Now it is a remarkably nice point, the maintenance of the equilibrium, as it were between the black and the red. Unbalance the thing one way or the other and blank ruin stares you in the face. Err on the side of too much black and nature kicks out an ugly foot and gives you enough smutty, peppered, and lace-hackled birds to last a life-time ; eliminate just a little too much black in your matings and you will blush every time you are called upon to explain to your visitors that you don't really keep buff Rocks!
The black ticking in the female's hackle to the degree called for in the standard is, in my opinion (which opinion, by the way, is held by the most competent American authorities), a valuable and almost essential point in the production of rich, dark, even red surface color. But to include ticking in the male hackle would be to overdo the whole thing. Such a mating, with ticked hackles on both sides, would completely upset the balance and the resultant progeny would be as sorry a lot of Reds as ever sickened mortal eyes. The alternative put forward by the reformers is to have clear hackles in both
sexes. And just as surely as the ticked hackled male would cause a surfeit of black in the mating, spelling irretrievable ruin, so. would the clear hackled female, by upsetting the balance in the other direction, slowly but surely produce a race of buffs. The whole truth of the matter is that the adoption of ticked hackles in both sexes or plain hackles, it matters not one jot which, would, if the standard in its ether points were retained, involve as an absolute necessity double-mating with all its tiresome bother. The standard was framed by American fanciers after much experience with the breed. And at no time since its compilation have responsible and competent Red authorities,either in the United States or England, seen fit to change it in any solitary detail. As a result of much experimenting and the widest observation, it has been proved beyond doubt and beyond question that the present standard description of hackles is the best, most attractive, and only practical one. The opinions
of novices and outsiders notwithstanding, it is as a matter of accurate truth the only way in which it is possible to breed standard exhibition specimens without double mating.

33115_picture00123.jpg


As a breeder we try to go by this;

— When Breeding —

Never use a male with;
• black striping in the hackle
• all-black undercolour
• a light hackle
• a buff breast
• (in the case of a cockerel) white in
• tail, wings, or hackle.

Never use a female with;
• white in any section
• all-black undercolour
• a mottled breast
• a heavily-striped hackle.

1 An Ideal Mating.
A male bird, youngster, or veteran, it matters not one jot which, fit to get into the money at the Club Show itself, mated with long-bodied, low-tailed females of rich dark red throughout; the undercolor of which, if it errs at all, must be inclined to smuttiness, carrying black in tail, strong wing markings, and hackle ticking to the extent called for in the standard and not one atom more.
The neck hackle of every solitary one of these females must be intensely dark red, preferably even darker than the rest of the plumage. Invariably, if diligent search will unearth it, a yearling hen of the quality described is infinitely to be preferred to a pullet. Knowledge of each bird's ancestry I am taking for granted, and that male and female both are, wherever possible, of the same strain.

2. A Mating Designed to Improve the Color of Cockerels in a Strain where they are inclined to be too Light a Shade of Red.
Select the best, most even and soundest of these inferior cockerels, paying particular attention to the soundness of his undercolor. With him mate hens or pullets, dark even red,
with smut in otherwise red undercolour, dark red hackles (preferably showing a little smut at base of hackle) that are darker even than the rest of the plumage, and good black tails.



Chris
 
Quote:
Henk,
If you cross a R.I. Red with a extended black or birchen bird what would the F1 offspring look like if Db is present?

Thanks,
Chris
 
For me, not having experience with the RIR and not that much experience in "chicken genetics" (as I've admitted to), I think a lot of confusing simply comes from the range of examples between "truly exhibition bred" birds, the many "production bred" birds and/or sometimes the differences between the US and other countries.

We "poor" beginners could get a "red chicken" that we are lead to believe is a RIR when in fact, it may have RIR in it, but may not be a very good respresentative of the Standard for Exhibition nor even a good representative of the genetics as intended. I think the same applies to nearly every other breed/color/pattern as well.

Even though several of us have been hashing out details of Rhode Island Reds, I think the scope of our discussions should especially caution beginners and those, like myself, who may have more limited experiences. Equally so, long term experiences (which is often critically important) maybe without proper test matings or even DNA sequencing, may not explain/be able to explain all of the twists and turns encountered in "what we think we see" and the genetics involved.

Starting out with a basic understanding and some further work on details, gives us a chance to know what questions to ask and how to ask them. Asking those questions will help to improve what it is that we think we know.

My thanks to everyone who is and has contributed to the current discussion, provided insights, referenced additional resources, and added to, at least for me, clarification and deeper understanding of "what I think I know".

I'm hoping to have my next "lesson" to stimulate discussion later today.

Dave
 
Lesson #4 The Last Group

Review: So far, these discussions have introduced the basic e-series or templates for chicken colors. Added in were the some of the “whole chicken” specific colors and last time, last time presented the genes that modified the distribution of red and black pigments to different areas on chickens. In addition, these genes can modify the intensity of the two pigments, especially of red. Always keep in mind that these genes may not just act alone and often there are interactions between different genes that can modify or change the basic actions of all genes.

The last group of genes in these lessons will be the Color Pattern or Feather Coloring genes. These, along with genes from the last lesson, sort of add the finer points to many of the color patterns in chicken appearance (phenotype). The genes in this group have in common that they change the appearance of individual feathers. Often the females look “patterned” than the male (rather than both being modified equally). Some of the patterns the genes are involved include penciling, multiple penciling, sex linked barring, single and double lace, spangling, mottling, and Mille Fleur patterns. The members of this grouping include:

Pattern gene symbol Pg (other allele pg+) Dominant
Barred (Cuckoo) symbol B (other allele b+) Dominant, sex-linked – there is also an Autosomal Barring)
Mottled symbol mo (other allele Mo+) Recessive

Very often, these genes need other genes to interact with to produce specific/desired appearances (including but not limited to the correct e-series template). Many times, these other genes are from the previous gene grouping. For example, let’s look at single lace as on eb birds (think Silver Laced Wyandotte). Generally single lacing requires Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, and Co/Co in order to produce what is expected.

Mottling generally represents a white “pearl” at the tip – dark ground colors being more dramatic in appearance (Think Black Mottled Cochin or Ancona) . It can also take on the appearance of random white (sometimes called jazzy). The white tip is actually “no color” rather than white being added to the feather. If closely examined, a black mottled feather may show a dull black band between the white tip and the rest normal sheen black feather. This black band gives rise to the Mille Fleur coloring when on with a brown red or gold ground color feather.

Sex linked Barring is one of the genes that can be utilized to produce what are called “auto-sexing” chicks. These are chicks in which males chicks will have one color appearance and females will have a different one. This allows for quick sexing at the hatchery level mainly to provide pullets only for egg production. There are many resources that discuss auto sexing, sex linked barring, and autosomal barring for those who are interested in these.

The affects of these genes and the genes in the last grouping are what could be thought of as the “fun” genes. Fun because they interact to produce so many different possibilities and fun because their interactions can be complex!

Dave
 
Quote:
Henk,
If you cross a R.I. Red with a extended black or birchen bird what would the F1 offspring look like if Db is present?

Thanks,
Chris

Co is hypostatic to ("covered by") extended black and birchen, Db is not.
So a cross of RIR with birchen would give columbian-like restricted cockerels and somewhat less columbian-like restricted females (quail like) if they "carry" Db.
If they didn't (thus Co only) the pullets would be largely black on the body. The cockerels would have largely black breast.

The columbian-like restriction effect of Mh is way less than that of Co and Db, but is to be taken into consideration in this experiment.

Someone must have done this cross...
wink.png


A testcross with e+ would be very confusing because the effects of Co and/or Db would be similar.
 
I said I would stay out but I want to post this picture.

ER/eWh, Co/co+, Mh/mh+, Db-Ml-Pg/db-ml-pg and B/_W, W+/w, Id/_W


13371_monique.jpg



picture of breast-flash bleached out the color some

13371_appen.jpg


Tim
 
Last edited:

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom