No, I don’t have any regrets about eating animals.

[FortCluck]

Plastic straws are banned here. Yay. I've found that if you take the paper ones out of your drink between sips, it's fine. Just FYI.

I'd rather bring my own silicone straw. I find we are banning things that are the tip of the iceberg instead of tackling the bigger problems. The bigger problems are ones that no one wants to face.

Recycling products at home now is a complete fail because most of it still ends up at the landfills.

 

[Aunt Angus]

I'd rather bring my own silicone straw. I find we are banning things that are the tip of the iceberg instead of tackling the bigger problems. The bigger problems are ones that no one wants to face.

Recycling products at home now is a complete fail because most of it still ends up at the landfills.

I like stainless steel straws myself, but the same idea.

And I COMPLETELY agree with you. But it makes people feel as though they are being proactive. And I guess it doesn't hurt, really. It's just annoying.

 

[FortCluck]

I like stainless steel straws myself, but the same idea.

And I COMPLETELY agree with you. But it makes people feel as though they are being proactive. And I guess it doesn't hurt, really. It's just annoying.

I grew up thinking that all the recycling was used and recycled like it's supposed to be and then as I grew older I learned how corrupted the complete system is. It's frustrating. We try to minimize the plastic that we use in our house and all of our food scraps go to the flock.

 

[Ms Biddy]

Grow your own is a great idea. I am trying to do that within the confines of my scale. I have only 1/3 acre. I have actually been thinking lately: I wonder if backyard poultry could be a big part of the solution to ecologically unsound meat production. 3 leghorns per person could provide a lot of healthy fat and protein in the form of eggs. That’s 12 birds in the average North American back yard which is very doable.

Quail.

Also squab, which used to be raised for meat quite prevalently. They are not good egg producers, but they are an efficient way to produce meat. Breeding pairs raise many clutches per year on minimal feed with hatchlings reaching harvest size in 30 days.

Vegetarian here! I hate when vegetarians and/or vegans push their viewpoints on others. I don't do that because I dont judge. If someone asks, I'll explain my philosophy. But to go on a meat bird forum is not cool.

Additionally, I dont get offended when religious folx speak their truths. I have a very religious friend who prays for me when I am sick or when I'm dealing with problems. I appreciate the thought. Honestly. How thoughtful is that? It shows she really cares about my well being.

But like vegetarianism, I don't think it's ok to proselytize...

Oh, and:

Me, too! Everywhere I travel, I get eye rolls and smirks when I say I'm a Californian... and I don't blame them. But, gosh, our state is beautiful. Maybe that's what makes us so insufferable. We're spoiled by gorgeous beaches, mountains, valleys, forests, deserts, cities....

Californian here too and I love the beauty of this state. Not all of us are insufferable or easily offended, but oh well.

 

[goldysgirl]

I'm a crazy dog lady too. The little black and brown one isn't mine, I was puppy sitting.

View attachment 1952922

I did have a neighbor who was Vietnamese and ate dogs/rabbits. I never really minded it as long as he respected my dogs, which he did. I personally wouldn't eat dog, cat, shark, dolphin, and giraffe (I may have forgot a few), but others have the right to.

Oh my gosh! So cute!

 

[FortCluck]

View attachment 1953099



Also squab, which used to be raised for meat quite prevalently. They are not good egg producers, but they are an efficient way to produce meat. Breeding pairs raise many clutches per year on minimal feed with hatchlings reaching harvest size in 30 days.



Californian here too and I love the beauty of this state. Not all of us are insufferable or easily offended, but oh well.

Thanks for sharing that pic! I sent it to a couple people

 

[FortCluck]

Oh my gosh! So cute!

Thanks, I want a Great Pyrenees for the farm. I'll let it live in a heated barn with the animals.

 

[goldysgirl]

Thanks, I want a Great Pyrenees for the farm. I'll let it live in a heated barn with the animals.

They are awesome dogs. So sweet and protective!

 

[ChocolateMouse]

.

But that's just it, right? It takes a single avocado 12 gallons of water to grow. Most avocados are produced in Mexico. There are areas in Mexico where whole villages have lost their natural water rights because of avocado production and have no water to drink. Entire crime cartels have sprung up in the last 50 years all focused on the money from american avocado consumption. But I bet you eat avocados, almost every veg* I know does passionately as it's a great source of fats and protein and tastes great (I eat a few myself). But you can't buy one in the USA without contributing to a definitely-capable-of-suffering human beings very real suffering. Forget about any electronics, made in Asia by children. Or shoes and clothing. "Don't use cane sugar, it's bad for you and south american plantations are unethical. Oh wait, don't take honey from bees either cause honey bees are killing off native bee populations. Oh wait, that means that agave syrup production becomes a problem for mexican bats. Oh, but bee growers are suffering from a lack of honey consumption and CCD and honey bees pollinate a lot of big plant farms especially nuts so DO support honey bees..." Etcetcetc... Just dig into banana republics for 30 seconds. It's awful everywhere. (All real problems.)

So it's nice to make this argument in general. But it's an impossible utilitarian equation. For example, I don't drive a car, but I bet you do. It has a catalytic converter in it. That has platinum in it, 68% of which comes from South Africa. (Obvs South African mines aren't always ethical, and these are the nice ones.) And the trucks that import plants from the south to the north so the plants can be consumed year round are made through unethical means as well. And the shipping of food from the south to the north puts fossil fuels in the air as well. But without shipping plants north the majority of north america has no way to eat vegetarian/vegan over the winter. And some studies show that even beef cattle (especially in land that's not properly arable for crops) aren't anywhere near as bad as we think they are (even the most critical citations admit it's technically possible to balance cow CO2 emissions just not practical/likely).

And the key conceit of the threads this topic is complaining about... Is the idea that Veg*n is often presented (by veg*ns) as not only the ONLY ethical choice but the MOST ethical choice. People often demand we justify not making that specific choice without justifying their own choices, with a nice tinge of "I'm better than you for it, tell me all the ways I disagree with you so I can feel smug about it" mixed in. Which is simply... Well it's frustrating and doesn;t even make sense.

Which isn't to say "don't be veg*n". Please do! I fully support veg*nism as an option for making the world a little better. I regularly cook veg*n for my friends who are veg*n. But more like... Don't think it's something substantially better than making other choices. You've chosen that particular way to try to make the world a better place - which is good! But chances are really good that it's not going to actually fall out any better than making the choice to eat, say, locally raised pasture meat. Or to avoid airplanes and bottled water. As long as you chose and make real effort to try to be better, I think that's enough. And unless you wanna crack some skulls it's the majority of what individuals can do.

As the kids say these days. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism except eating ***.

 

[Mak24456]

But that's just it, right? It takes a single avocado 12 gallons of water to grow. Most avocados are produced in Mexico. There are areas in Mexico where whole villages have lost their natural water rights because of avocado production and have no water to drink. Entire crime cartels have sprung up in the last 50 years all focused on the money from american avocado consumption. But I bet you eat avocados, almost every veg* I know does passionately as it's a great source of fats and protein and tastes great (I eat a few myself). But you can't buy one in the USA without contributing to a definitely-capable-of-suffering human beings very real suffering. Forget about any electronics, made in Asia by children. Or shoes and clothing. "Don't use cane sugar, it's bad for you and south american plantations are unethical. Oh wait, don't take honey from bees either cause honey bees are killing off native bee populations. Oh wait, that means that agave syrup production becomes a problem for mexican bats. Oh, but bee growers are suffering from a lack of honey consumption and CCD and honey bees pollinate a lot of big plant farms especially nuts so DO support honey bees..." Etcetcetc... Just dig into banana republics for 30 seconds. It's awful everywhere. (All real problems.)

So it's nice to make this argument in general. But it's an impossible utilitarian equation. For example, I don't drive a car, but I bet you do. It has a catalytic converter in it. That has platinum in it, 68% of which comes from South Africa. (Obvs South African mines aren't always ethical, and these are the nice ones.) And the trucks that import plants from the south to the north so the plants can be consumed year round are made through unethical means as well. And the shipping of food from the south to the north puts fossil fuels in the air as well. But without shipping plants north the majority of north america has no way to eat vegetarian/vegan over the winter. And some studies show that even beef cattle (especially in land that's not properly arable for crops) aren't anywhere near as bad as we think they are (even the most critical citations admit it's technically possible to balance cow CO2 emissions just not practical/likely).

And the key conceit of the threads this topic is complaining about... Is the idea that Veg*n is often presented (by veg*ns) as not only the ONLY ethical choice but the MOST ethical choice. People often demand we justify not making that specific choice without justifying their own choices, with a nice tinge of "I'm better than you for it, tell me all the ways I disagree with you so I can feel smug about it" mixed in. Which is simply... Well it's frustrating and doesn;t even make sense.

Which isn't to say "don't be veg*n". Please do! I fully support veg*nism as an option for making the world a little better. I regularly cook veg*n for my friends who are veg*n. But more like... Don't think it's something substantially better than making other choices. You've chosen that particular way to try to make the world a better place - which is good! But chances are really good that it's not going to actually fall out any better than making the choice to eat, say, locally raised pasture meat. Or to avoid airplanes and bottled water. As long as you chose and make real effort to try to be better, I think that's enough. And unless you wanna crack some skulls it's the majority of what individuals can do.

As the kids say these days. There's no ethical consumption under capitalism except eating ***.

Well, nowhere did I say I was vegan. I eat and use animal products all the time.

You're right that some plants are high environmental impact, but overwhelming evidence indicates that, in the end, a plant based diet (compared to the traditional factory farming) is more sustainable. Your point about the avocados, 12 gallons each? A single pound of beef is between 1000-2000 gallons. Eating food grown locally also reduces environmental impact. I'm not under any delusions that the earth and other humans aren't impacted by my lifestyle, but I choose to do what I'm able to so I can reduce my own impact.