Opened a Can of Worms I didn't want to!!! I need some horse advice.

[EweSheep]

Could the Two's be a couple? I know it goes down badly when divorce property goes down. Something tells me there is nothing going on between Owner one (who wants the horse back, has papers) and Owner Twos. If they had some kind of legal contract, they paid payments and most of the time breeders wont give the new owners the papers until the horse is paid IN FULL. If they went ahead and sold the horse or gave the horse to someone else, tough luck to Owner 1. She got her payments and the papers. I would not give Owner 1 anything.

The horse is sold to you fair and square and get that horse DNA'ed.

 

[welsummerchicks]

"The horse was sold to you fair and square"

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Sales of a horse are like a series of links in a chain. If one link is broken(one sale is illegal), all the links after that are broken too.

So for example a barn worker steals Mary's horse. He sells it to Joe. Joe sells it to Bill. Bill sells it to me. I have the horse. If Mary finds out I have the horse and approaches the authorities and has proof it's her horse, and the authorities contact me and inform me, I have to give the horse back to Mary. I bought the horse fair and square, but I have to give it back to Mary.

A couple scenarios possible.

1.) Two's did not finish paying One and took off with the horse to another state. One finds them, contacts the authorities, they contact me, I have to give the horse back to One. I bought horse 'fair and square', but the sale from One was not legal. That Two's gave the horse away is immaterial. The horse goes back to One.

2.) Two B disputes Two A giving the horse away. Two B disputes that A had the legal right to do so as Two B was not consulted in the sale. Two B's name is not on the bill of sale to Three (even giveaways need a bill of sale and something must change hands from buyer to seller - one dollar is fine). There is a bill of sale from One that names BOTH Two's as the buyer. The movement of horse to Three is not legal. I have horse. Two B contacts authorities, but A and B cannot resolve who should take the horse and they are no longer in business together. Typically, one owner will buy out the other's part of the ownership and the horse will go to that person. The movement of the horse from Two to Three is invalid and so is the movement of the horse from Three to Me.

3.) Two and Three are too preoccupied with their own current emergencies and crises and don't actually have anywhere to board or keep a horse. Plus, since Two's and Three both have things going on they'd rather not have attention drawn to, they very quietly lose interest in the horse. One sees a chance to make a pile of cash with very little risk, so throw a scare into Celtic Hill that they have some legal control of the horse. Celtic of course will do anything to keep the horse...and One has a lengthy and complicated explanation for why Celtic buying the horse's registration papers would make One forget all about how much he is dearly attached to this horse and misses it so.

 

[patandchickens]

Yeah, it seems to me that it boils down to whether Two A legally bought the horse from One. Unless I've overlooked something, I've seen nothing in this thread that gives any information at all on that one way or the other. Consequently, regarding this:

the owner with the papers wants her back. EEEK, even though she sold her, she still wants her back barnie. She is legally mine, we paid for her. But what's to stop the other owner to try and get her back *if* she finds out we have her?

I do not think it is possible to have a sensible opinion without more information. It could be that you (C.H.) do not legally own the horse; it could be that you are on rock-solid ground; the devil is in the details, which we do not know here.

Is it possible that you maybe misinterpreted what the person meant? That they would *like* her back, not that they feel legally *entitled* to her back?

Pat​

 

[welsummerchicks]

To be honest, a fairly high percentage of horse sales have SOME sort of legal wrinkle to them.

Most of the time no one bothers to do anything about it.

Why? Most people have no idea what comprises a legal sale.

They have no idea what sales contracts and arrangements are valid in their state.

See the posts about 'first right of first refusal' - generally, it is just not somethng you can even PUT in a sale contract and expect it to ever be legally enforced - because it just isn't something a seller can demand, whether he writes up a contract or not. Each state governs what you can put in a contract.

Basically, once you sell it you have no control over what's done with it or who the buyer can then sell it to.

Most of the horse business operates on 'Bluff and BS' - sometimes people get intimidated and give in, so the bluffers and the bs'ers keep doin' it!

Sit tight, 'don't say nothin' to nobody', get the DNA test.

 

[Rusty Hills Farm]

So for example a barn worker steals Mary's horse. He sells it to Joe. Joe sells it to Bill. Bill sells it to me. I have the horse. If Mary finds out I have the horse and approaches the authorities and has proof it's her horse, and the authorities contact me and inform me, I have to give the horse back to Mary. I bought the horse fair and square, but I have to give it back to Mary.

I tend to agree with WC's position on this whole thing, mostly because the part in bold has not happened. If the original owner had a legitimate claim, that would be their first step. They would not be hinting around about more money or trying to talk CH into returning the horse; they would be making a beeline straight to the authorities before the horse disappears--just the way RoPo did last year. Unless and until such a thing happens, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this. Do the DNA testing and get the registration that is offered with it, and stop worrying about the rest of it unless/until it actually happens.

JMO, of course.


Rusty​

 

[WIChookchick]

I didn't read ALL of the posts...perhaps I should.
Do you have the names and numbers/addresses of the other owners... can you find out why the papers were not transferred to the person who originally bought your mare?
Have you asked the original owners/breeders WHY they want her back?
Yo have a lot of time and emotion as well as money tied up into this horse.
You do have the option of telling your trainer you would rather not open up that can of worms. And keep her unregistered.
You can also talk to the breeders and tell them you have quite a lot of money tied up in this horse, she is happy, healthy and well taken care of.
Ask them if it was a money issue as to why the papers where with held. BUT hold firm, and do NOT tell them where you live, do not call them from a home
phone, OR where the mare is at.
If it is a money issue, can you offer to compensate them and get the papers?
If not back down, enjoy your horse and be happy. There are many grade horses out there that are super well bred.
Go on her ability and not on her blood lines.
Keep us updated...


I have a supposedly PB saddlebred, she doesn't look it, and even after confronting and cajoling the person she was donated to.. a non disclosure agreement
prevented her from telling me ANYTHING...
I am 90% sure that she is not PB, but that is ok she is a great horse!
Unless you are prepared to FIGHT for your mare, walk away and watch your back, tell the previous owner's you do NOT want to be contacted by the breeders,
if they try to contact them to get your information...

be careful and enjoy your horse.

 

[itsjustjen]

I went through a very similar situation just last summer.

The owner with the papers first has to go through the courts and prove that the horse was illegally sold in ANYWAY to the former owner that bought her and it's as simple as that, the horse is gone. It's a harsh thing, I know how scary it is for you right now.

I had it all; bill of sale, coggins, vet records and none of it mattered, they had the papers and that's all it took.

Your situation may be different though as there is more than one preivous owner between you and them. That's a lot of trails to follow. If you can, get in contact with a lawyer first thing. They can then call the previous owners and prove that the horse was legally sold between any of the previous owners. Then the paper holding owner may not have a leg to stand on. Papers or no papers, they must first prove that the horse was stolen/illegally sold in the eyes of the courts.

They may threaten you and try all kinds of cruel ways to scare you into returning the horse willing ( it happened to me and I fought tooth and nail against until they proved to the courts they had legal claim over me ) IF you willing hand over the horse just because they say the horse is theirs and not yours, you lose everything!

Get the DNA test done ASAP. Get the papers in your name and then your claim may overrule theres. Best of luck. I pray your ordeal turns out well!

 

[welsummerchicks]

I have to disagree for CH's sake. I would emphasize AGAIN - PLEASE - do not do anything, do not call anyone, do not have a lawyer call anyone.

JUST.SIT.TIGHT. If you TALK to a lawyer (say, if you can share more information than what was put up here), make sure the lawyer understands not to do anything, just to advise you of possibilities. If you have no more info than what you put up here, there's no sense at all in going to a lawyer - it isn't enough information for a lawyer to advise what possibilities are...possible.

This whole thing could blow over. Any possible issues need to be people approaching YOU and THEM paying for any lawyering - not the other way around.

Let THEM pay for the lawyer - you'll be amazed how effective that is in getting people to decide - 'oh well, I didn't want that horse back that bad anyway'.

Don't YOU be paying for what THEY should be paying for.

As an old lawyer told my uncle - 'If people is shootin' atcha, don't stand up and wave 'here I am!' quite so much. People have short attention spans. There is every chance they will forget you exist'.

ALL of these people sold or gave away this horse. They didn't think it was worth a whole lot of effort or dough when they were selling it to Two's or giving it away to Three!

Sit tight and stay calm. This whole thing is such a complete mess from Owner #1 on that there is every chance that these folks will drop it. I am not sure how much proof any of these parties have of anything.

The first owner has to prove she didn't just sell the horse for a knockdown price without the papers, just to get it sold. Owners Two have to prove they agreed to give away the horse, etc, etc, etc. I don't know if ANY of them have enough information to prove ANY of them sold the horse 'illegitimately'.

 

[itsjustjen]

For CH's sake, I hope you are right welsummers.

Stand by your horse CH. In my eyes, Owner #1 has little to no claim to the horse as it has changed hands too many times and it was never once reported or questioned.

 

[Sierra pachie bars]

I would say the papered owner is just trying to take advanage of the poster. If the horse has changed hands several times over. I have a horse that the papers are someplace but he's changed hands so many times who know where they are. Do you have a bill of sale ?