Penny Marshall my 1 year old Wyandotte Hen having issues... again..

[mrskenmore]

Hi all,

You may remember Penny Marshall had a rough time this Spring with some vitamin deficiency or poisoning that caused her to become very weak.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...suddenly-updated-with-happy-ending-😍.1581943/

She sailed through summer and fall back with the flock 99% recovered. Laying, perching dust bathing and foraging alongside her eight sisters.

Fast forward to October for her first real hard molt. I had to separate her, she was getting bullied and they were drawing blood from her pin feathers coming in. She was reluctant to walk, but was eating her layer feed, drinking her water daily. It has been almost ten weeks since she started her molt, she is still reluctant to walk, but she can and does get around daily. This is her only symptom. I recently started back on the half tab of b complex.

@Wyorp Rock and @Eggcessive since you were closest to her situation this past Spring, tagging you both for your thoughts.

Here we are in December and I am at a loss, she is not getting worse, but I thought she would be better by now. She is nearly complete with her molt. Her feathers look beautiful again.

What could this be? Vitamin deficiency? Worse? Mareks?

Here is a video from today

Thanks for reading and for your help!

 

[azygous]

Sorry to hear our little heroine Penny Marshall has had a relapse. And I think that's what this is. I reviewed her other thread where it was determined she was suffering from toxic levels of zinc at that time. I would be surprise if her zinc levels were not climbing again. She had all of the classic symptoms of zinc toxicity.

We never discussed "hardware disease" or pica on the other thread. It's where a chicken has a compulsion to pick up and consume nails, screws, and other bits of metal. You never had Penny X-rayed. It may have shown a gizzard with bits of metal in it. Can you think of any place there may be bits of zinc metal flaking onto the ground she may be picking up? Rain gutters corroding, zinc nails corroding and she may be pecking at them? Metal siding she may be pecking at?

What I suggest is to confine her so that she is unable to find any metal contraband to further poison herself. Best if you can confine her in the run somehow so she isn't separated from the flock. Then put her back on her vitamin therapy of E and B-complex with a sliver of selenium daily. Do this immediately.

 

[mrskenmore]

Sorry to hear our little heroine Penny Marshall has had a relapse. And I think that's what this is. I reviewed her other thread where it was determined she was suffering from toxic levels of zinc at that time. I would be surprise if her zinc levels were not climbing again. She had all of the classic symptoms of zinc toxicity.

We never discussed "hardware disease" or pica on the other thread. It's where a chicken has a compulsion to pick up and consume nails, screws, and other bits of metal. You never had Penny X-rayed. It may have shown a gizzard with bits of metal in it. Can you think of any place there may be bits of zinc metal flaking onto the ground she may be picking up? Rain gutters corroding, zinc nails corroding and she may be pecking at them? Metal siding she may be pecking at?

What I suggest is to confine her so that she is unable to find any metal contraband to further poison herself. Best if you can confine her in the run somehow so she isn't separated from the flock. Then put her back on her vitamin therapy of E and B-complex with a sliver of selenium daily. Do this immediately.

Thank you @azygous your prompt reply as always.

She has been separated adjacent to the coop since October as she was getting picked on by the flock.

You are right her zinc levels were high back in May, I didn't have blood work done since then and thought about bringing her back to the vet to get her tested again. Thoughts?

I felt since she rebounded for 4 months we could rule out that the zinc or possible metals were still in her system.
I wasn't surprised that she had a hard molt, as she had to grow back almost all her feathers. I have had her on the b complex half tablet daily for a week now. She is also getting a little sardine to help absorb that. I am seeing slow improvement which is good.

Are you recommending vitamin e and selenium on top of that daily? Just let me know what to get and the dosage and I will pop out to get it.

I am happy to start that tomorrow. She is down a lb. from her typical weight, so I make sure she eats her layer pellets and goes to bed with a full crop. I am going to cut out any treats so that she is getting ALL the vitamins possible from her feed. I also gave her a direct shot of poultry cel this afternoon via syringe in her mouth. I will inspect her area for any and all metals tomorrow.

Thank you for your advice

 

[azygous]

Yes, the E will hopefully stop her from developing neurological symptoms again. Last time she had the neurological issues and she had anemia and weakness. Those are all symptoms of zinc toxicity. About the only way she could have gotten that much zinc into her system is by consuming it. You need to hunt for possible sources as I suggested. Zinc is is a lot of metal we use - pipes, siding, galvanized buckets, nails, etc. If she isn't swallowing nails and screws, perhaps it's leaching into the water she drinks.

What are the watering containers you use for the chickens made of? Metal or plastic? If it's metal and you use ACV in the water for the chickens, it leaches zinc out of the galvanized metal. This ends up being toxic to the chickens. If that's not the source of the zinc Penny has in her system, she's getting it from some place. I would definitely have her blood tested again so you will know this isn't the beginning of something else entirely.

 

[mrskenmore]

Yes, the E will hopefully stop her from developing neurological symptoms again. Last time she had the neurological issues and she had anemia and weakness. Those are all symptoms of zinc toxicity. About the only way she could have gotten that much zinc into her system is by consuming it. You need to hunt for possible sources as I suggested. Zinc is is a lot of metal we use - pipes, siding, galvanized buckets, nails, etc. If she isn't swallowing nails and screws, perhaps it's leaching into the water she drinks.

What are the watering containers you use for the chickens made of? Metal or plastic? If it's metal and you use ACV in the water for the chickens, it leaches zinc out of the galvanized metal. This ends up being toxic to the chickens. If that's not the source of the zinc Penny has in her system, she's getting it from some place. I would definitely have her blood tested again so you will know this isn't the beginning of something else entirely.

Thank you,

I will look at everything in her area and make sure there is nothing there. She currently drinks and eats out of plastic or ceramic bowls. I will make another appointment with the vet for her tomorrow for additional assessment and blood work. We don't have a lot of metal that I can think of and their water is filled from inside our house...so I hope it's not that...

I will start on the Vitamin E tomorrow. Should I get a selenium pill? Or is feeding the sardines ok?

Poor Penny I feel awful this is happening again, I just thought it was a bad molt..

 

[mrskenmore]

I also just ordered a zinc test kit to rule out the water

 

[azygous]

Excellent action! You are amazing! It could be that the zinc is from her original episode and never cleared her system and she began to develop symptoms again because she was going through the hellish molt. It's curious that she's the only chicken showing this problem. I'd be curious to know if any of the other chickens have elevated zinc.

It's good you're getting your water tested. It wouldn't be the first time a sick chicken on this web site led to a family discovering their drinking water was contaminated. Yes, it has happened. Baby chicks were dying. The family found their water was so contaminated they were forced to move. We found out because they came back a year later and updated the thread.

When you ask the vet for the new blood test, also ask her to resume a search for the treatment. If the blood work shows elevated zinc again, it will be apparent she cannot clear it from her system on her own.

She doesn't require very much selenium to help her absorb the E. Food sources are best. When we use selenium tablets, it's only to shave a little off a tablet. Selenium is another heavy metal that can cause toxicity, and it's best to be very careful to only give what is required for normal body metabolism.

 

[mrskenmore]

Excellent action! You are amazing!
Thank you very much for that- much appreciated

It could be that the zinc is from her original episode and never cleared her system and she began to develop symptoms again because she was going through the hellish molt.
I agree, the molt triggered this

It's curious that she's the only chicken showing this problem. I'd be curious to know if any of the other chickens have elevated zinc.

Agree with you here too- everyone else is perfectly perky ages 1-6

It's good you're getting your water tested. It wouldn't be the first time a sick chicken on this web site led to a family discovering their drinking water was contaminated. Yes, it has happened. Baby chicks were dying. The family found their water was so contaminated they were forced to move. We found out because they came back a year later and updated the thread.

Wowww- scary! Kit comes tomorrow and I will be able to test the house water first, then the outdoor hose this weekend when it warms up.

When you ask the vet for the new blood test, also ask her to resume a search for the treatment. If the blood work shows elevated zinc again, it will be apparent she cannot clear it from her system on her own.

Agreed- will call the vet tomorrow and see if she can locate the chelate for Penny


She doesn't require very much selenium to help her absorb the E. Food sources are best. When we use selenium tablets, it's only to shave a little off a tablet. Selenium is another heavy metal that can cause toxicity, and it's best to be very careful to only give what is required for normal body metabolism.

Ok great - again thank you so much for your help, I really appreciate it! I will do vitamin e, half tablet of b complex, and a little sardine daily

Also I need to ensure she is eating at least a half cup of layer pellets daily

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Penny! You have everyone worried about you

I'm so glad Carol remembered more about the Zinc and reviewed the thread!
I agree, I'd start the vitamins at least and see if they help. Getting more testing of her and your water is a great idea.

Your vet would be the best resource of recommending treatment (Chelation) but you may want to look at a few things a few long time bloggers have written about. I can't say how effective the methods/herbs are, but it may be worth researching while you are waiting for testing.

I know she's not feeling her best, but she's such a lovely lady. Her new feathers are just beautiful.
Keep us posted.

https://bitchinchickens.com/2020/09/28/hardware-disease-metal-toxicity-in-chickens/
https://www.fresheggsdaily.blog/2015/07/preventing-hardware-disease-heavy-metal.html

 

[mrskenmore]

Penny! You have everyone worried about you

I'm so glad Carol remembered more about the Zinc and reviewed the thread!
I agree, I'd start the vitamins at least and see if they help. Getting more testing of her and your water is a great idea.

Your vet would be the best resource of recommending treatment (Chelation) but you may want to look at a few things a few long time bloggers have written about. I can't say how effective the methods/herbs are, but it may be worth researching while you are waiting for testing.

I know she's not feeling her best, but she's such a lovely lady. Her new feathers are just beautiful.
Keep us posted.

https://bitchinchickens.com/2020/09/28/hardware-disease-metal-toxicity-in-chickens/
https://www.fresheggsdaily.blog/2015/07/preventing-hardware-disease-heavy-metal.html

Thank you so much @Wyorp Rock

I am home for the next 16 days and Penny will have all of my undivided attention to get better. I appreciate the articles- they were encouraging. I am going out to feed Penny now and will be calling her vet in a few hours when they open this morning.

When I was reading the article by Lisa Steele she mentioned natural remedies

Other Natural Treatments for Hardware Disease
Metamucil capsule
Echinacea capsule
Papaya enzyme tablet
What you Do | Crush the tablet and stir it into the capsule powders. Mix in a small amount of water to get the consistency of pulpy orange juice.

Is she saying to mix Metamucil plus echinacea plus papaya here to administer?

Feed 2-3 cc's orally twice a day using a plastic syringe or eyedropper. This should help break down any fibers impacted with the metal and move any blockage as well as remove the toxic material, and provide some immune system support.

Thanks all as always for your help and support for Penny