Thanks Aubrey, I appreciate the critique. He is out of my old original Bowman/Shaw line birds. I must also correct myself on age, he is almost 13mos old, My other wht back up roo is 10mos old, sorry for misleading you. I'm going to wash him up a bit, take away his ladies and get some pics on the perch with yardstick or tape measurer (sp) so you can see the actual numbers on the tail length without being stretched out. We took original measurements with the t.m. I held bird and end of TM on skin while hubby stretched out the longest tail feather, so the 3.8 may not be accurate either, but that's the length we got. I figure he's probably done growing length, right? How do you measure your birds, maybe an easier way to do it?? Thanks again