Post Your Chocolates, Dun ,Khaki , Platinum Bird Pics

[Sonoran Silkies]

I fully understand what you are saying there. But I think you may have miss interpreted what smoothmule was saying. I may be way off, but
I believe they were just saying you would need to test breed it to see if it was dun or rec chocolate. I know for a fact Jerry has both dun and chocolate in his personal seramas, so recognized or not, it's certainly in them. Think the deal is, they are both virtually identical phenotype wise so a test breeding to a black base bird would be needed to see if it was one or the other.

Now on the old english thing, yes there are no chocolates that I am aware off. This is a pet peeve of mine. The oeg, and polish folks and several other breed groups seem to call everything chocolate or fawn to make it sound "prettier" Well when there is another color that is identical on the phenotype, it's always best to call it by it's genotype to avoid confusion. The end result is the very easy and readily available duns are getting the perks of the very rare and hard to find true chocolates. Just call 'em what they are and avoid all the mix ups.

If you don't like the name "chocolate" or "fawn," complain to the APA and ABA, not the breeders. FWIW, I am not sure that choc was an acknowledged or well-known gene when the variety chocolate was first recognized.

Quite frankly, I am not sure that there are any perks for choc versus dun. They both simply create similar phenotypes. If either has the advantage, one could consider dun as it can create two phenotypes: chocolate and khaki, whereas choc can only create one phenotype.

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

it will be interesting to see what happens the 1st time a true Choc is submitted to the standard... it will be a mess for sure... i know several on the APA board that have said that they would not change the names in the standard... so that leaves the Choc breeders out in the cold IMO the best guess i have seen it that they will be entered as self Choc but IDK if that will hold up when it actually happens or not...

BTW i just have dun birds right now and ill just call them dun lol...

 

[smoothmule]

I never stated there were no duns in the Serama's. I stated there had not been any to be proven to be dun. You "can" prove dun and recessive chocolate by breeding. In the OEGB, dun has been proven by breeding. In the Serama's, chocolate is proven by breeding but there has been no Serama's proven to be dun. Lots that "look" dun but none that have proven to produce as dun would. You can get dun looking birds by crossing chocolate to blues or pumpkin and chocolate looking duns when they are bred to black. That doesn't change the genes responsible for the visual color.

If there are duns in the Serama's "anywhere" then they are well hidden and not documented or proven be breeding

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

it will be interesting to see what happens the 1st time a true Choc is submitted to the standard... it will be a mess for sure... i know several on the APA board that have said that they would not change the names in the standard... so that leaves the Choc breeders out in the cold IMO the best guess i have seen it that they will be entered as self Choc but IDK if that will hold up when it actually happens or not...

BTW i just have dun birds right now and ill just call them dun lol...

I don;t know why it would be a mess. The standard is based upon appearance, not genetics. There is a difference in appearance between self blue and blue. There isn't between choc and dun. Both create a self coloured bird.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

the advantage I was speaking of is the price a true chocolate in the USA gets. We all know they are super expensive due to the rarity of the gene here. Any bird that is proven true chocolate usually goes in the hundreds of dollars. That is what I was implying as to the chocolate advantage I feel some breeders are piggy backing on name due to that. Call 'em what they are. But to me, like Sonoran said, I like the dun gene over the chocolate just because of the khaki bonus it yields. But I like the tone of the chocolate brown more than that of the dun brown. So they both have genetic perks of their own to me.

Yes I know the APA and ABA are the ones who named them that. But there are breed groups that the color is not recognized in also, so they have no offical on paper name, yet they still get called " chocolate" even though they are dun.
The fawn name I have no problem with you know what it is when you see it, really none of it bothers me at all, just I see it all the time now where you get " Oh I have chocolates" the people honestly dont know the difference if they are new to things.
So Just call them what they are is what I was saying to mainly avoid confussion, especially with new comers to breeding

And yes once true chocolates get into the ring, what then? There can be a visual difference in some, while others will look 100% identical.
Where on a lavender ( self blue) verses a normal A. blue it's pretty obvious.
This wont always be the case with these two brown colors.

Back to the self blue and blue thing, you dont see people with blues calling them lavender. So why cant we do the same with dun and chocolates?. Maybe self brown??? haha Who knows, if they refuse to change the dun name from chocolate to calling them all dun or fawn, then once the true chocolates come into the show ring they'll have to have some off the wall non related name. Oprs arent far, so we'll see

 

[Lorilyn Farms]

I prefer the dun gene as well, over the chocolate. And yes, there is a slight difference between the two that would cause me to choose one over the other. it IS too bad that people are mixing up the names, because like Bottoms says, there will be a mess when the colors are recognised and you go to purchase chicks or eggs, wanting one gene and getting another.


Blue Silver Duckwing Old English Bantam
Fawn Silver Duckwing Old English Bantam


At least Ideal Is giving the mostly correct genetic info into their coloration break-downs, which is nice. This is their breakdown of "Fawn":

The action of the fawn (l-D) gene is similar to the action of the blue (Bl) gene. The fawn (l-D) gene only has an effect on black plumage, which is diluted to a fawn or creamy brown color, the color of White-tailed deer. Other plumage colors are not affected by the fawn gene. When fawn (l-D i-D) males are mated with fawn (l-D i-D) females, the ration of colors produced is as follows: 1 black (i-D i-D), 2 fawn (l-D i-D) and 1 fawn splash (l-D l-D). Any fawn variety ordered from Ideal Poultry may include chicks with black, fawn or fawn splash plumage patterns.

They are not using the term chocolate in any of their OEGBs. Is homozygous dun officially Khaki or Splash or Sport or what? I like Khaki, but I'm not sure if it's the official term.

Good conversation!

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

yes khaki is the term most commonly use for it

 

[smoothmule]

It's going to be interesting to see what the APA and ABA does with the naming of the recessive chocolates. The Chocolate Orpingtons are going to be followed by others as the color is introduced into other breeds here. When they decide what to do name wise, we'll just have to follow suit. I wish they would simply call them what they are, Dun Chocolate and Recessive Chocolate, seems so simple and correct.

The Serama has had recessive chocolate for so many years but not accepted so it hasn't brought the issue out for that reason. I think the Orpingtons are going to bring out the issue first. I don't have my chocolate Serama's far enough along to share with other breeders much less to show a good showing to get them on the list to be accepted and not many others are concentrating on good solid chocolate Serama's that I'm aware of. I have a Chocolate Araucana project pen that's up and running but it will take a few years to have them up to the Araucana standard. I have one pullet that is a lovely chocolate color, fully rumpless and one tuft, pea comb. Another generation and I'll have the skin color corrected but I have other things to perfect as well before I can call them chocolate Araucana's. I'm working on a Dun Araucana project as well but that has not started yet.

 

[heritagehabitatfarms]

it will be self chocolate if they just don't change it all around lol... they are waiting for the 1st ones to be submitted before they make a decision lol... will be a mess for sure... i wish they would just call them dun and self chocolate (or just chocolate) but i have been told that the existing standard will NOT!!! be changed so the chocolate OEGB are safe lol...

 

[jeremy]

Couldn't they both just be called Chocolate? And in the SOP of both there could be a notation differentiating the two genes responsible for the color?