Post Your Chocolates, Dun ,Khaki , Platinum Bird Pics

[nicalandia]

whats the difference between blue and recessive chocolate?..

for one Blue is autosomal(not sex linked), Blue is incompletely dominant and incompletely penetrant(source https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-vs-complete-dominant-vs-incomplete-penetrant) two copies of blue will produce whats called splash. since this gene is incompletely dominant some black feathers are to be expected, while a breeder can do all he can to try to avoid this, this will happen in at least one bird.. Blue is incapable of diluting Pg(Pattern gene) and Melanotic(Ml) on a Extended black background(self black birds based on the Extended black e allele).

Chocolate(choc) is a recessive sexlinked gene. needs two copies on the males to be expressed, but the females need only be Hemizygous for it(choc/-).. chocolate is not known to be a leaky gene, chocolate is capable of diluting Pg and Ml on any background...

let see how both gene works on the same flock(source http://www.orpingtonbantams.co.uk/)

Black Hen(source http://www.orpingtonbantams.co.uk/black.htm)




Blue Hen(one copy of Blue Bl/b+)




Chocolate hen(one copy of chocolate choc/-)





you see how choc dont have dark lacing around like blue? thats because they work differently..

now what would happen if you mix choc and blue?.. long ago I predicted the outcome.. a light chocolaty color(thanks to Blue and chocolate working on the body at the same time) body and chocolate outer lacing.. Why? well again , blue is incapable of diluting Pg and Ml on a E background, leaving the outer lacing of the boy to be diluted only by chocolate..

this color is known as Mauve
.

 

[Lorilyn Farms]

I have a question. One of my black millie fleurs are coming in with black columbian colors, yet other feathers are coming in gray/mauve. i've never seen such a split of black and grey on the same bird. Granted, this breeder stock was piss-poor, and many off the other birds are completely useless for breeding purposes.
.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

looks like a blue mille to me actually. Everythings blue except the hackle looks like and the body is diluted. Some times you get a little of that in weak blue lines.

 

[nicalandia]

I have a question. One of my black millie fleurs are coming in with black columbian colors, yet other feathers are coming in gray/mauve. i've never seen such a split of black and grey on the same bird. Granted, this breeder stock was piss-poor, and many off the other birds are completely useless for breeding purposes.
.

oh he is blue alright.. he seem to carry a melanizer(maybe Melanotic).. blue is not good at diluting melanotic. not even on wildtype birds.

example Blue Brassy Back


even Splash has some issues diluting Melanotic on some background

Splash Brassy Back

 

[Lorilyn Farms]

Weak lines are exactly what I would call this breeder. these are welp hatchery chicks. He's SUPPOSED to be a black millie. Should be interesting to see how he grows out. he looks like a blue merle Queensland Healer!

 

[nicalandia]

Weak lines are exactly what I would call this breeder.

blue can be improved upon.. the issue with blue is that other genes/diluters can affect its appearance..

check my light blue cockerel. other genes at play

 

[smoothmule]

whats the difference between blue and recessive chocolate?..

for one Blue is autosomal(not sex linked), Blue is incompletely dominant and incompletely penetrant(source https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...-vs-complete-dominant-vs-incomplete-penetrant) two copies of blue will produce whats called splash. since this gene is incompletely dominant some black feathers are to be expected, while a breeder can do all he can to try to avoid this, this will happen in at least one bird.. Blue is incapable of diluting Pg(Pattern gene) and Melanotic(Ml) on a Extended black background(self black birds based on the Extended black e allele).

Chocolate(choc) is a recessive sexlinked gene. needs two copies on the males to be expressed, but the females need only be Hemizygous for it(choc/-).. chocolate is not known to be a leaky gene, chocolate is capable of diluting Pg and Ml on any background...

let see how both gene works on the same flock(source http://www.orpingtonbantams.co.uk/)

Black Hen(source http://www.orpingtonbantams.co.uk/black.htm)




Blue Hen(one copy of Blue Bl/b+)




Chocolate hen(one copy of chocolate choc/-)





you see how choc dont have dark lacing around like blue? thats because they work differently..

now what would happen if you mix choc and blue?.. long ago I predicted the outcome.. a light chocolaty color(thanks to Blue and chocolate working on the body at the same time) body and chocolate outer lacing.. Why? well again , blue is incapable of diluting Pg and Ml on a E background, leaving the outer lacing of the boy to be diluted only by chocolate..

this color is known as Mauve
.

I have to disagree "somewhat" about chocolate not showing red leakage. Red can definitely leak out on chocolate, it's just not as pronounced as it is on black. I have 2 chocolate hens that have a lot of red leakage. I think they are chocolate with heterozygous wheaten since wheaten is so hard to be covered completely by black, I would expect the same for chocolate. The red is sort of diluted and blends in with the chocolate but it can definitely be seen. I'll take photo's of the 2 hens tomorrow. They are a lighter chocolate, by just a little, than my good chocolates on a better black base with no red leakage. It's even more visible (the red leakage) on a chocolate cockerel.

I lost this cockerel this fall, frizzles are very sensitive to cold and draft. He proved himself chocolate by producing chocolate pullets with my chocolate hens but look at the red leakage. He is chocolate laced red and proven by breeding to have been chocolate.





Here is one of my recessive chocolate hens, with obvious red leakage, obvious to me because I have chocolate with no leakage as well. See the variance in the shades in the saddle and tail?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Quote: While they can't have "true black," just as with blue, the dilution can be so little, or on only part of the bird that the darkest pasts LOOK black. Both chocolate coloured (dun at least) and blue can display green sheen. Here is an example of one of my dun based chocolate coloured birds with an extraordinary amount of green sheen. All the "shiny" part are very, very green. These are all photos of one bird. The hackles, saddle and back are all nearly black, although in one of these photos they do not look that dark. The lighter parts are milk-chocolate coloured. His colouring is very even. The photos that look to show silver--that is merely reflection. With the exception of the first photo from a month or so ago, these are all photos from today.

 

[smoothmule]

So your premise is that there are absolutely no "accidents" in the chocolate gene? That it is a perfect cover-up gene when others fail....

That is an "absolute" I will repeat, if there is a single black feather, it cannot be recessive, sex linked chocolate. There can be silver and red leakage on recessive chocolate but "Never" black. It was never said to be any sort of cover up gene. Nothing of the sort and it doesn't even "cover up" black. What it does to black is dilute it and it is total, no black leakage......"Ever". It's totally different than blue. There is no double dilution (splash) when homozygous. Chocolate to chocolate breeding simply produces chocolate.
Dun, does act like blue. I've not seen any with black leakage but I know that because it breeds like blue, the homozygous form has some differences.

 

[smoothmule]

That is incorrect. Just as any bird with a double dose of blue can still have a weird, crop-out black feather in a beautiful tale of white, the same can happen with any other gene. To say that a single feather outcropping eliminates that entire gene is false. Please be careful when making statements like these.
I e- there can be "holes" in genes. Within a white bird there are genetics for other colors, it's just that the white is dominant over the other colors. However, if there is a "hole" in the white, the underlaying color will peek through. That does not mean the bird is no longer white. It has a fault. Why do you think there are "paint" birds, horses,etc? A spotted horse has the dominant white color covering it's base coat. The holes create a pattern of spots and allows the base coat to show through. Same with an oddball black feather showing through the covering chocolate, blue, etc gene.
Again, please be careful with this statement. This statement is repeated throughout the forums and it simply isn't true and is misleading to new people trying to learn genetics.

I'm hoping you are talking about heterozygous dun chocolate and not recessive chocolate because if you are stating this about recessive/sex linked chocolate, this is the reason so many people get messed up trying to learn about chocolate. It cannot be stated enough, recessive chocolate does not have black, ever.
It's as incorrect as the people who are always stating they have something that no one else has, that theirs is somehow different, magically I guess, than others. They always state that the "rules" can be bent, as though they even understand what those rules are. Genes have rules. They don't bend. If a gene allows leakage, then that is part of the rule of that gene, not that the rule has been bent. I finally just give up on some people in the other threads that mostly have people with chickens for pets that want to know what color they have. But here, there is discussion of genetics and incorrect statements should not be ignored, ignoring them gives the assumption of validity.

Recessive chocolate is simply put, a color where every feather that would have been black is diluted to chocolate. Chocolate will always replace all of the black on any pattern. Chocolate duckwing, chocolate birchen, chocolate mottled, chocolate mille.....any pattern is possible that has black. Silver and red can both be seen on a chocolate although red/gold seems to be muted and can blend with the chocolate a bit. Black and recessive chocolate cannot appear at the same time on an individual, period.