Proper design of Roost Bars

[Rodrad]

What I do is deep bedding, not deep litter. The difference is that deep litter composts and needs moisture, while deep bedding is bone dry and doesn’t compost. I don’t want deep litter because it doesn’t work well on a wooden floor, it needs bare dirt which is not what I have. Also, I don’t want the moisture (it can freeze in the winter, contribute to coop humidity, or smell if not done right). Deep bedding - the dry method - is less maintenance and easier. I bury the dirty bedding in the garden in the fall, and let it compost there overwinter, so I still get compost in the end, just not in the coop.

Thanks, that makes sense about the difference of two “deep” floors! What I read about the deep litter is that with some management, adding at the right time some shavings, or putting down some grains for chicken to do more scratching, adding occasionally some lime and with a very good ventilation the system can work real well. Of course, the wooden floor must be covered with linoleum or vinyl or possibly rubberized with some coating for this system. I plan to build a coop so making a proper type floor is not a problem.

The basic advantage I see that it can be cleaned only once a year, it provides some low heat in the winter and is ready compost to put in the garden.

Have you tried that system?

I have been thinking of having a poop board and for the rest, based on your experience, now I am thinking of deep bedding. So, I have doubts that I should go with a poop board system.

I may want to hear more from people who are doing deep litter before I decide which “deep” system I will go.

BTW, what type of roost perches you have, how high from the floor are they, and if you have two or more, how far are they from each other?

 

[K0k0shka]

Thanks, that makes sense about the difference of two “deep” floors! What I read about the deep litter is that with some management, adding at the right time some shavings, or putting down some grains for chicken to do more scratching, adding occasionally some lime and with a very good ventilation the system can work real well. Of course, the wooden floor must be covered with linoleum or vinyl or possibly rubberized with some coating for this system. I plan to build a coop so making a proper type floor is not a problem.

Yep, deep litter is a good system, too, and not that much more management, but it's still more than deep bedding. I haven't tried it myself. I work full time and have two young children, so I'm trying to cut down on any unnecessary additional labor with the chickens. Any time I have left for them I want to spend just hanging out with them, interacting and enjoying them

The basic advantage I see that it can be cleaned only once a year, it provides some low heat in the winter and is ready compost to put in the garden.

Deep bedding can be cleaned out once a year, too. To me, the difference between once or twice a year isn't that big, so I like to give them a fresh restart twice. The low heat isn't important to me. They sleep 4 feet off the ground and the minimal heat won't reach them, and during the day they don't spend any time in the coop, so they won't benefit from that heat. Plus, it doesn't get that cold where I live - occasional dip to the 20s or teens, never anywhere near 0, so the chickens don't need additional heat.

As for the compost, it doesn't matter whether I put it in the garden now as poop shavings and they compost over winter, or if they compost in the coop and I put them in the garden in the spring. It's the same amount of labor for me, just different times of the year. What does matter, however, is that if I clean the coop out in the spring and put everything in the garden, not all the poop will have composted evenly, and it will span months in age, with the freshest on top still being actual poop. That's not good to put in your garden, and there's no good way to separate fresh from old, since the chickens will have scratched it all together. What people usually do is after they take the deep litter out of the coop, they put it somewhere else to finish composting so it's safe to put in the garden. Maybe not for as long as the un-composted dry bedding, but it's still an additional step, and additional space, that adds more work to this method. It's not worth it for me.

I have been thinking of having a poop board and for the rest, based on your experience, now I am thinking of deep bedding. So, I have doubts that I should go with a poop board system.

You don't need a poop board with either method. For deep litter, you'd want the poop to fall down so it can get composted. You could try a poop board for deep bedding, and that can extend the time between full coop clean-outs, but those are already once or twice a year, rare enough where it won't make a big difference. But a poop board will add more daily/weekly work for you to scoop it. Which you might be fine with. Me, like I said, I want to cut down on any unnecessary labor, so I don't want a poop board. It's been working out great for me without one, so I'm happy.

BTW, what type of roost perches you have, how high from the floor are they, and if you have two or more, how far are they from each other?

I have thick branches for roosts, on 3 levels in a ladder-like fashion. The tallest one is 4 feet off the floor and 1 foot from the wall, the rest are spread somewhat evenly between the tall one and the floor in terms of vertical space, and horizontally they are about 1 foot from each other, to give the chickens room to maneuver. Some chickens can fly 4 feet up and don't need intermediate branches, but I have heavy, lazy breeds that are poor flyers and they really appreciate the intermediate branches for getting up and down. Also, they like to spread out and hang out at the different levels of branches in the morning while waiting for the auto door to open.

 

[Rodrad]

Yep, deep litter is a good system, too, and not that much more management, but it's still more than deep bedding. I haven't tried it myself. I work full time and have two young children, so I'm trying to cut down on any unnecessary additional labor with the chickens. Any time I have left for them I want to spend just hanging out with them, interacting and enjoying them


Deep bedding can be cleaned out once a year, too. To me, the difference between once or twice a year isn't that big, so I like to give them a fresh restart twice. The low heat isn't important to me. They sleep 4 feet off the ground and the minimal heat won't reach them, and during the day they don't spend any time in the coop, so they won't benefit from that heat. Plus, it doesn't get that cold where I live - occasional dip to the 20s or teens, never anywhere near 0, so the chickens don't need additional heat.

As for the compost, it doesn't matter whether I put it in the garden now as poop shavings and they compost over winter, or if they compost in the coop and I put them in the garden in the spring. It's the same amount of labor for me, just different times of the year. What does matter, however, is that if I clean the coop out in the spring and put everything in the garden, not all the poop will have composted evenly, and it will span months in age, with the freshest on top still being actual poop. That's not good to put in your garden, and there's no good way to separate fresh from old, since the chickens will have scratched it all together. What people usually do is after they take the deep litter out of the coop, they put it somewhere else to finish composting so it's safe to put in the garden. Maybe not for as long as the un-composted dry bedding, but it's still an additional step, and additional space, that adds more work to this method. It's not worth it for me.


You don't need a poop board with either method. For deep litter, you'd want the poop to fall down so it can get composted. You could try a poop board for deep bedding, and that can extend the time between full coop clean-outs, but those are already once or twice a year, rare enough where it won't make a big difference. But a poop board will add more daily/weekly work for you to scoop it. Which you might be fine with. Me, like I said, I want to cut down on any unnecessary labor, so I don't want a poop board. It's been working out great for me without one, so I'm happy.


I have thick branches for roosts, on 3 levels in a ladder-like fashion. The tallest one is 4 feet off the floor and 1 foot from the wall, the rest are spread somewhat evenly between the tall one and the floor in terms of vertical space, and horizontally they are about 1 foot from each other, to give the chickens room to maneuver. Some chickens can fly 4 feet up and don't need intermediate branches, but I have heavy, lazy breeds that are poor flyers and they really appreciate the intermediate branches for getting up and down. Also, they like to spread out and hang out at the different levels of branches in the morning while waiting for the auto door to open.

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Thank you so much for your time to discuss in a very thorough matter all my questions !
Appreciate your very good discussion on different litter management. Will talk to my wife about these options, since that will be her job plus she has a good size garden and would need compost. Of hand, I think your system of deep bedding sounds real good.

Based on your experience, regarding perches I know consider branches (~3” in diameter?) or actual 2” width (cut to this size from 2x4 lumber).

Well, one more question, possibly your husband can answer that, what is the size (in ft2) of your vent area when you have weather with temp about 20 deg F? And related to that how many chickens you have.

I know that rule of thumb is to have 1 ft2/chicken, but I think this is just for warm month. Here in Columbus, IN most of the winter weather is in twenties, on occasions for a week a time, several times over winter we have temps in mid teens or even sometime for just a day or two even in the low teens.

 

[K0k0shka]

Glad I'm able to help!

Based on your experience, regarding perches I know consider branches (~3” in diameter?) or actual 2” width (cut to this size from 2x4 lumber).

2x4 lumber is fine if you don't have branches. There's a lot of debate on whether the 2x4's should be wide side up or narrow side up. The theory is that if the roost is wider where their feet make contact, their toes won't show under the feathers when they sit down, and thus will stay warmer in winter. I did an experiment looking at my chickens when sleeping, to see if there are any toes showing. Now, my branches are thick, so the test conditions aren't ideal (should have tested with narrow roosts), BUT, there's so much body fluff overlapping the feet that I can't imagine there would be a lot of toes showing even with narrower roosts. I posted a thread with my findings and pictures, you can see it here. I'd say anything 2" or wider is probably fine, just make sure if it's lumber that the edges are sanded smooth. Narrower than 2" I imagine it just won't be as comfortable, won't be as sturdy (may bow under their weight) and would be harder for them to keep their balance on when turning and maneuvering up there.

Well, one more question, possibly your husband can answer that, what is the size (in ft2) of your vent area when you have weather with temp about 20 deg F? And related to that how many chickens you have.

I know that rule of thumb is to have 1 ft2/chicken, but I think this is just for warm month. Here in Columbus, IN most of the winter weather is in twenties, on occasions for a week a time, several times over winter we have temps in mid teens or even sometime for just a day or two even in the low teens.

Why my husband? He has nothing to do with the chickens. I built everything myself, and find the assumption a bit insulting. The vent area alone is 12 square feet total, and I have 5 chickens. That part stays open year round. In the summer, I also open both windows, and add a detachable screen door in place of the human door, to get more air in there. Ventilation is very important, especially in winter when you want moisture and ammonia to have a way out. A dry coop is more important than a warm coop. As long as the vents are high up where wind can't blow across the chickens, they'll be fine. Folks raise chickens in areas much colder than yours - sub-zero temperatures - and still leave their vents open. You'd need to be somewhere seriously arctic to start sacrificing vent area for the sake of temperature.

 

[Rodrad]

Glad I'm able to help!


2x4 lumber is fine if you don't have branches. There's a lot of debate on whether the 2x4's should be wide side up or narrow side up. The theory is that if the roost is wider where their feet make contact, their toes won't show under the feathers when they sit down, and thus will stay warmer in winter. I did an experiment looking at my chickens when sleeping, to see if there are any toes showing. Now, my branches are thick, so the test conditions aren't ideal (should have tested with narrow roosts), BUT, there's so much body fluff overlapping the feet that I can't imagine there would be a lot of toes showing even with narrower roosts. I posted a thread with my findings and pictures, you can see it here. I'd say anything 2" or wider is probably fine, just make sure if it's lumber that the edges are sanded smooth. Narrower than 2" I imagine it just won't be as comfortable, won't be as sturdy (may bow under their weight) and would be harder for them to keep their balance on when turning and maneuvering up there.


Why my husband? He has nothing to do with the chickens. I built everything myself, and find the assumption a bit insulting. The vent area alone is 12 square feet total, and I have 5 chickens. That part stays open year round. In the summer, I also open both windows, and add a detachable screen door in place of the human door, to get more air in there. Ventilation is very important, especially in winter when you want moisture and ammonia to have a way out. A dry coop is more important than a warm coop. As long as the vents are high up where wind can't blow across the chickens, they'll be fine. Folks raise chickens in areas much colder than yours - sub-zero temperatures - and still leave their vents open. You'd need to be somewhere seriously arctic to start sacrificing vent area for the sake of temperature.

First, my appologies for my not thinking that you can answer the question on the ventilation area! Sorry I ruffled your fathers. It is amazing that you actually built the coop✌.

I think your pictures debunk the theory that narrow perch, especially round one could expose chicken’s toe and thus get frostbite in very cold weather. Since I also think that chicken in their evolution slept on branches (don‘t think there were 2x4, either wide or narrow side up) I have decided to go with round perch. What is the average diameter of your perches?

Wow, your winter vents are a whopping 2.4 ft2 / chicken! I will definitevely have permanent vents much larger than I thought so far (0.2 ft2/chicken ! but some my neighbors had such vents and they didn’t report any issue with insufficient winter ventilation). I Possibly can plan to leave open both side eves plus will have one large vent on the gable.

For your deep bedding system, how high you start with shavings (pine?) and do you add some during the 6 month? What is your suggestion on the average diameter of the branch for roost?

As always, I really appreciate your input!

 

[Molpet]

First, my appologies for my not thinking that you can answer the question on the ventilation area! it is amazing that you actually built the coop✌.

I think your pictures debunk the theory that narrow perch, especially round one could expose chicken’s toe and thus get frostbite in very cold weather. Since I also think that chicken in their evolution slept on branches (don‘t think there were 2x4, either wide or narrow side up) I have decided to go with round perch. What is the average diameter of your perches?

Wow, your winter vents are a whopping 2.4 ft2 / chicken! I will definitevely have permanent vents much larger than I thought so far (0.2 ft2/chicken ! but some my neighbors had such vents and they didn’t report any issue with insufficient winter ventilation). I Possibly can plan to leave open both side eves plus will have one vent on the gable.

Rrelated question, if my roosts are at, let say 20” from the floor, the Chicken heads on the roost would be another 12-15” higher, let say at 3’, and if my eve opening starts at 5.5’ would that produce too much draft by cold air streaming down?

As always, I really appreciate your input!

I have the whole south end of my cattle panel hoop coops open in the winter. The chickens use the coops, but The turkeys usually roost in the trees until it's around -20f, some stayed out anyway.
I also built them myself, no menfolk around here.

 

[aart]

I built everything myself,

I also built them myself, no menfolk around here.

Me Three!

 

[Rodrad]

I have the whole south end of my cattle panel hoop coops open in the winter. The chickens use the coops, but The turkeys usually roost in the trees until it's around -20f, some stayed out anyway.
I also built them myself, no menfolk around here.

 

[K0k0shka]

What is the average diameter of your perches?

I can measure tomorrow and let you know. I’m guessing around 3-4”.

Wow, your winter vents are a whopping 2.4 ft2 / chicken!

I had twice as many chickens earlier this year, and am leaving my options open to getting more in the future again. So everything is designed with a higher capacity in mind (twice as high for everything - vents, coop space, run space).

Rrelated question, if my roosts are at, let say 20” from the floor, the Chicken heads on the roost would be another 12-15” higher, let say at 3’, and if my eve opening starts at 5.5’ would that produce too much draft by cold air streaming down?

That sounds fine in terms of distance from the vents. Not a lot of height for the roosts themselves though, chickens like sleeping up high. You can go another foot up and be fine with the vents. And make sure the roosts are higher than the nesting boxes, so the chickens don’t sleep in the boxes.

 

[Rodrad]

I can measure tomorrow and let you know. I’m guessing around 3-4”.



I had twice as many chickens earlier this year, and am leaving my options open to getting more in the future again. So everything is designed with a higher capacity in mind (twice as high for everything - vents, coop space, run space).


That sounds fine in terms of distance from the vents. Not a lot of height for the roosts themselves though, chickens like sleeping up high. You can go another foot up and be fine with the vents. And make sure the roosts are higher than the nesting boxes, so the chickens don’t sleep in the boxes.

Thank you again very much, for your responses. I feel somewhat bad that I ask you so many questions. But I like your experience....

Well, another question, for deep bedding do you have or is it good to have, something like linoleum (or rubberized paint) over the wood (plywood?) floor?

Oh, when you mentioned roost height, how high are your nesting boxes from the floor (so that your deep bedding doesn’t migrate inside)?