Question for sellers-do you replace eggs for bad hatches-when and why?

[asher]

Quote:
Thank you

Yes, they are really neat. To see them looking like such a "real" chubby baby at this gestation is just amazing.

 

[pasofinofarm]

Quote:
Thank you

Yes, they are really neat. To see them looking like such a "real" chubby baby at this gestation is just amazing.

They are real chubby babies! I just love seeing them doing cute stuff. We had one last week who was sucking his toes! How cute is that?

Your tech got a great face image there, congrats!

 

[Clay In Iowa]

Melissa,

You've been more than fair and offered a second batch of eggs at a reduced price when the first 18 you sent me had 14 candle clear on day 6. I didn't ask you just offered. I do believe having eggs shipped is "just the risk you take". You packaged the eggs very well and they arrived with out any chips dings or blemishes. But every air cell was broken and in a few it even looked like the yolk had ruptured. An update on that, I opened one I thought had a ruptured yolk. It was indeed ruptured. That tells me the USPS was extremely hard on them. It certainly wasn't your fault. The offer has guaranteed when I need more breeding stock in the future I know where I'll go to get it. (I'ma gonna have some of your favs some day)

As a total noob I made a huge mistake with another breeder. I made some very poorly thought out incorrect accusations (M, I think you know why I was so unlike myself). Even when my mouth got me in the dog house she STILL offered to make it right. I refused. She has since offered again, I'll get more eggs from her but it won't be "just for shipping". She too has guaranteed a repeat customer.

All but one BYC breeder I've dealt with has offered to "make it right". But I've yet to ask anyone to replace a single egg.


As to your other thread about the secret to shipping eggs.
I've gotten all my eggs from BYC breeders this year. Only one batch arrived with intact air cells (21 out of 21 intact) and it was labeled "Hatching eggs LIVE embryos" every other batch, 4 different breeders, has had broken air cells (69 out of 69 broken). Not a single egg has been damaged externally. Now I'm a scientist and an "n" of one is not statistically significant so we'll see if a few more labeled "live" makes a difference.

 

[gaeamama]

Quote:
I have two questions:

First, what things could cause this? I would be so devastated (but still understand it happens) that the embryos made it to day 18 and didn't hatch. I'm just wondering what some of the variables are. I have 16 eggs in the incubator right now that all appear viable, but most of those are aracauna and I know not to even expect all to hatch. But gosh, it's so exciting and anxiety producing! I also have BO's that are looking good with veins!

Secondly, how can you tell if the air sac is broken? Do you just not see it when candling? What do you look for specifically?

I just put 6 marans eggs in this morning! Don't know if I'll even be able to see into those, but I guess that'll make it more fun in a way.

It's a little hard for me playing this hatching game. I'm getting addicted, and don't even know how to plan for final numbers.. it's driving me a little insane. And more poor husband! He sees all those eggs and his eyes get big as saucers.. he thinks we're going to have way too many chickens. I haven't even told him I have 6 more coming at the end of the month!!

 

[Birch Run Farm]

Whew, I read all eight pages first before responding! Lots of great input. Egg shipping/receiving can be difficult.

My first try was several dozen Muscovy eggs from different sellers on ebay as well as four goose eggs. One packed very well, the other not as good and some eggs were broken. Both of them sent several extras. Still, none hatched, out nearly $100.

Now fast forward to BYC. I love this site and there are a lot of terrific people here. I have sent a half dozen true araucana eggs to KLF73 and recently received eggs from the OP.

I believe KLF's eggs arrived to her intact and she had very good fertility. For that particular breeding pair are both bilaterally tufted. I sent them as mega overnight Express, at my expense. I think it cost $16 for shipping but worth getting fragile eggs off to a good start. We were doing an exchange/swap but she recently told me she was unhappy with the chicks that did hatch. Again, I'm out.

The eggs from the OP arrived unbroken but some of them were resting against the carboard box sides upon opening. The eggs are from her goldens and ameraucanas. The egg color was very, very light on both but I know her birds have been in production for awhile as she is in Texas. They are scheduled to hatch a week from today. I candled once and several showed no development at all. Some have very good embryo development. There was one extra egg in the container and I am not sure what breed it was from as it was cream colored, it has not developed.

This is my first report on the eggs and was planning to wait until I had hatch to let her know what came of the order.

I think the hardest part for eggs is some are very expensive. Yes, it is a bit of an investment. Some people send extras and some don't. Yes, it is a bummer when they don't hatch/develop. I set a bunch of my own eggs after allowing them to sit out in single digit weather to explore the 'cold' issue and they all developed. I did not allow them to freeze but believe me they were very cold. I did this before obtaining eggs from the OP to make sure I wasn't making a bad investment. Those are hatching today.

As far as packaging, everyone seems to have different methods.

Here's what I do:

I pack my araucana eggs in an over sized egg carton with each egg wrapped in tissue and leave an empty space next to each. That means there are six eggs per carton. This keeps them from being shifted around in the box from their travels. I believe this reduces the chance of broken eggs and broken air cells. The carton is then packed in a large, thick styrofoam container and the empty space around the carton filled in with baggies or crumpled newspaper. Then there is an outer cardboard box. I label the container as live hatching eggs.

I am hesitant to wrap eggs individually in plastic (bubble wrap) for two reasons. Potential lack of air to the egg and I don't know what chemicals are used to make that plastic. I don't want anything leaching into the eggs via the permiable shell. The tissue I wrap them in before placing them in the carton serves to allow air circulation and keep them from banging around. No plastic or styrofoam ever touches the eggs. I use paper cartons.

I shipped my first live bird yesterday and that was a relatively painless experience. He is due to arrive to his new family today by noon!

 

[klf73]

I always candle my eggs before they go into the bator. If the air cell moves freely, then the air cell is ruptured, i.e. when the egg is on it's side you can see air bubbles that are not connected to anything. If it just moves slightly down the egg but is still *stuck*, I have seen that referred to as saddle cell (I assume because of the shape). I have had none develop with a ruptured cell, although I still put them in the bator just in case. I have had lots of saddle cell and most have hatched with no problem.

I will have to add that hatching true araucana is the most challenging, IMO

 

[klf73]

Quote:
Whoa, whoa, hold your horses girl!
The info I gave you was just that, a FYI. I NEVER said I was unhappy and sorry if you took it as such. I am still planning on sending you eggs...
girl you need to e-mail me......

oh, I even kept that huge box just to send back to you

 

[pasofinofarm]

Our packing method includes wrapping each egg in bubble wrap (small bubbles) and then in a full sheet of news paper cushions and provides absorption in case of a broken egg then packing in a "nest" surrounded by crumpled grocerie bags. None are touching the sides of the box when they leave here and they are packed pretty tightly. I have never had an issue with eggs I recieved wrapped in bubble wrap not hatching or having any kind of 'chemical' damage. They have grown up healthy chickens who lived long lives. I have been horrified to recieve eggs packed in 'used' shavings, bubble wrap bags that were not taped shut, an egg carton inside a box with no cushioning, etc.

I have used various other packing methods over the years and have found that there is really not one that can prevent 'shaken egg syndrome' with ruptured air cells and broken yolks. So we do what is easy and inexpensive. We candle for hairline cracks or pourosity before we pack. We also pack eggs within a day of lay as fresh eggs seem to stand up to the riggors of shipping better than those that are several days old although they are viable and will hatch fine at home. Past that I would probably be unwilling to do much more. I have turned down sales of eggs that asked for special handling like hot/cold packs or foam coolers... I will ship overnight at the buyers expense but I have only had two people in all these years that would spring for that kind of postage. I even hear it occasionaly about the $15 that we charge to pack, tote and ship eggs. I get folks that want me to cram 2 dozen or more in a box to 'save shipping costs' even after they are advised I do not think it safe to ship any more than 18 eggs with our method. Burch Run what you are saying if I am correct is that you can ship 6 eggs for $16... Most folks I know just won't pay it. If they would I think they would get 5 viable probably so ultimately it might be a better deal... but in reality I don't see it.

We have packed eggs, thrown them off our roof and then hatched them... so what is being done to scramble these eggs is really something... after talking to the post office wharehouse employee I am amazed that any of them hatch. Yet they do.

 

[pasofinofarm]

Quote:
I have two questions:

First, what things could cause this? I would be so devastated (but still understand it happens) that the embryos made it to day 18 and didn't hatch. I'm just wondering what some of the variables are. I have 16 eggs in the incubator right now that all appear viable, but most of those are aracauna and I know not to even expect all to hatch. But gosh, it's so exciting and anxiety producing! I also have BO's that are looking good with veins!

Secondly, how can you tell if the air sac is broken? Do you just not see it when candling? What do you look for specifically?

For a full list of reasons for incubation failures look here:
http://www.msstate.edu/dept/poultry/trouble.htm#LD

For the specific problem of failure to hatch with full developement her are possible causes and solutions.

Symptoms Probable Cause Corrective Measures

Chicks fully formed, but dead without pipping

Low average humidity
Maintain recommended humidity for species of bird incubated.

Improper incubation temperature
Check thermometer accuracy and incubator functions. Follow recommended temperature settings.

Improper ventilation in incubator
Adjust ventilation to provide optimum moisture-loss rate from egg during incubation.

Improper turning of eggs
Turn eggs at least three times daily until 3 days prior to hatching.

Chilling of eggs
Gather eggs frequently and store under proper conditions

Diseased or poorly conditioned breeder flock
Conduct a good disease control and breeder management program. Use a well-balanced nutritional diet.


Some of the things I have found in my own hatches... Closing down the incubator completely to maintain humidity can sometimes cause a lack of O2. Dry membranes can cause chicks to not be able to pip, dying in thier shells fully formed and even with yolks absorbed. Low temp at hatch makes chicks sluggish and they fail to pip... I always use two thermometers (at least) and if eggs do not hatch right at day 21 I mentaly adjust for what temp probably is... If you have a day 18 hatch your temp WAS NOT 99.5 throughout your incubation. Some species hatch a little earlier or later but that is another factor.

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[asher]

Quote:
I will tell you my experience simply b/c of what you said about the bubble wrap. Just mine and that's all it should be viewed as.

I have received so many eggs in so many different ways. The ones that come in the BEST shape to me are the ones that are individually wrapped in bubble wrap. I've gotten them shipped in so many ways including how you have noted you do yours. The last time someone shipped me some the way you say you shipped yours, I think 5 out of the dozen made it in tact and those five had the goop on them from the other broken ones.

I haven't candled them, yet to see if it ruined them completely, but I'm fully expecting most of them to have blood rings. Paper doesn't really cushion them. It just doesn't. Eggs are so fragile, if it gets shifted the wrong way even against the carton, the chances of them getting cracked are big.

With that said, I have a big bag of shredded paper. This is my new method, box is FILLED with shredded paper, then each egg is individually wrapped with small bubble wrap (all around, not just sides, but closed up with tape) and they are put in a "nest" of sorts right in the center of the box within the shredded paper. I have shipped way too many boxes of eggs here lately and all of those eggs have made it in tact from what I have been told. Not all have grown, but a lot have. (Not counting the duck eggs b/ they haven't been candled yet and they were test eggs with low fertility currently to begin with. They did make it in tact, though.) Lack of air to the eggs or what might be on the bubble wrap has not effected them at all. I believe the bubble wrap cushions adling and jolting, as well.

I believe finding what works for you and continuing to use it is very wise. If your method works for you, that's great. I will continue using my method b/c it works for me. I think just in the past month I've sent 10 or 12 (maybe more) boxes of eggs for testers, swaps, trades, etc. ALL made it in tact, none broken (from those that reported to me which was the majority). To me, that's pretty favorable results so I don't need to fix what's not broken (no pun intended

). Now, if I start getting complaints of brokens and/or adled eggs once they arrive, I would look in to ways to improve that, of course.