Red vs Mahogany vs Copper

[nicalandia]

I'm getting the feeling that colors and color names are not consistent across breeds though

They are not, the topic is so subjective that I dare not to comment on any SOP related threads. I rather dwell in objective chicken genetics threads.


Edit. Wow I didn't know I had 10 years already helping around here.

 

[Amer]

I suppose this counts as mahogany.
The difference between mahogany, red, and copper is not genetics related, unless you count quantitative genetics. They are bred selectively.

 

[ColtHandorf]

So the birds pictured below I bred and sold as "Production" Rhode Island Reds. They are not as dark as "Heritage" Rhode Island Reds that adhere to the APA's SOP. These birds I would consider Red.

The birds you see here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/the-heritage-rhode-island-red-site.407294/

would be considered "Heritage" Rhode Island Reds and would be considered Mahogany.

Copper I have only ever seen used to describe Black Copper Marans.

 

[ZooAtHome]

So the birds pictured below I bred and sold as "Production" Rhode Island Reds. They are not as dark as "Heritage" Rhode Island Reds that adhere to the APA's SOP. These birds I would consider Red.

View attachment 1846705 View attachment 1846706

The birds you see here:

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/the-heritage-rhode-island-red-site.407294/

would be considered "Heritage" Rhode Island Reds and would be considered Mahogany.

Copper I have only ever seen used to describe Black Copper Marans.

Interesting. I would have considered these birds mahogany and the ones you linked to brown. It really is very subjective. Thanks for the post. It helped.

 

[ColtHandorf]

So for example, the red in Blue-laced Red Wyandottes occurs because of the Mahogany gene. These birds here:

http://www.foleyswaterfowl.com/blue-laced-red-wyandottes.html

Are another good example of the color you get from red with mahogany at play.

 

[ZooAtHome]

So for example, the red in Blue-laced Red Wyandottes occurs because of the Mahogany gene. These birds here:

http://www.foleyswaterfowl.com/blue-laced-red-wyandottes.html

Are another good example of the color you get from red with mahogany at play.

That actually makes sense to me. I have three Blue-lace Red Wyandotte pullets and their "red" comes in several different shades, all of which, in my uneducated opinion, are varying shades of mahogany. My girls are all lighter than the ones in your link, though. Admittedly, mine are all hatchery quality and I think they are technically splashes not blues, so that probably plays a part as well. The BLR Wyandottes are definitely more red than my Gold-laced though. Is that because the GL Wyandottes don't have the mahogany gene?

 

[Amer]

That actually makes sense to me. I have three Blue-lace Red Wyandotte pullets and their "red" comes in several different shades, all of which, in my uneducated opinion, are varying shades of mahogany. My girls are all lighter than the ones in your link, though. Admittedly, mine are all hatchery quality and I think they are technically splashes not blues, so that probably plays a part as well. The BLR Wyandottes are definitely more red than my Gold-laced though. Is that because the GL Wyandottes don't have the mahogany gene?

Yep. That's why you can't show a black laced red as a gold, because they're different.

 

[CindyinSD]

I didn't name a specific breed because I've been reading about several and trying to get a handle on what is meant by various patterns and colors in general. That said, I have a pair of Black Copper Marans which recently started showing their "copper" feathers, thus spurring the specific question regarding red vs mahogany vs copper, so I guess starting there is as good a place as any.

I'm really just trying to put these colors in context when it comes to chickens. "Red" can mean different colors depending on where it is used. For example, "red" with cats is really more of an orange, yet "red" in dogs is more of a reddish-brown, or what I would consider "mahogany." As an artist, I can tell you that my red pencils and paints are not at all the same as any of the "reds" we describe in animals. To further confuse matters, when it comes to chickens, a "red" comb and a "red" feather are not at all the same color. Since I am brand new to chickens, I don't yet know what "red" means when it comes to poultry.

My reading thus far has led me to conclude that, when it comes to chickens, there is a discernible difference between red, mahogany and copper, especially given that, in some cases, these color variations are used to describe whether or not the bird conforms to the SOP. However, nothing I've read to date actually explains the difference between red vs mahogany vs copper, the articles just assume you already know, which I don't. Thus, I'm just trying to figure out what that difference is. Reading the words without any visual examples makes it difficult to quantify them, so I am in search of visual examples to aid my understanding. Honestly, I thought this would be a simple question and that learning to differentiate them was just a matter of comparing enough birds with those colors pointed out. I figured a good way to do this was to ask people to share pictures of their red, mahogany and copper chickens so I could actually see the colors.

If I were painting the copper feathers on my Marans, I would reach for quinacridone rust (M Graham watercolors).

I have some young Buckeyes, which are alternately described in the SOP as deep rich velvety red or mahogany. Looking at the color swatches online, I would choose perylene maroon (same brand—which is my favorite) as closest to the photos on the American Buckeye association’s webpage, particularly that of the cock’s neck and saddle plumage.

Red with reference to combs of fertile adults, imo, is a neutral red, neither more blue nor more yellow. I use napthol red.

Ultimately the colors are always going to be subjective to a great degree. Just as the judges in an art show will have differing opinions as to the qualities of the works they’re assessing, so judges in a poultry show will unavoidably mix in some of their own opinion in judging color. Even if you know the exact wavelength of the color in question, that color will vary depending on the light in which we see it and the light cast on it by other nearby colored masses. Color is SUCH a fascinating subject—impossible to pin down and constantly changing based on environment and individual perception. With regard to describing it, all we can do is our best.

 

[ZooAtHome]

If I were painting the copper feathers on my Marans, I would reach for quinacridone rust (M Graham watercolors).

I have some young Buckeyes, which are alternately described in the SOP as deep rich velvety red or mahogany. Looking at the color swatches online, I would choose perylene maroon (same brand—which is my favorite) as closest to the photos on the American Buckeye association’s webpage, particularly that of the cock’s neck and saddle plumage.

Red with reference to combs of fertile adults, imo, is a neutral red, neither more blue nor more yellow. I use napthol red.

Ultimately the colors are always going to be subjective to a great degree. Just as the judges in an art show will have differing opinions as to the qualities of the works they’re assessing, so judges in a poultry show will unavoidably mix in some of their own opinion in judging color. Even if you know the exact wavelength of the color in question, that color will vary depending on the light in which we see it and the light cast on it by other nearby colored masses. Color is SUCH a fascinating subject—impossible to pin down and constantly changing based on environment and individual perception. With regard to describing it, all we can do is our best.

Someone else who speaks color. Awesome!

Thank you. This I understand.

 

[FowlWitch]

Red on the Left, gold on the right



Mahogany
View attachment 1844886


Copper(only used by Maran breeders as no other breed mentions it)
View attachment 1844971

What breed is in the first pic? He's stunning