Rehoming my roos. Heartbreaking

[birdofhermes]

Wait, what... how am I exploiting my chickens?

I give them everything they need and more. There life here is much better than if they were in the wild living with weather and predators having to search out their own food. Dealing with ticks, mites and whatever else might haunt them. They are gonna lay those eggs whether I collect them or not. And they are eventually going to die whether I eat them or not. They are safe and healthy plus well cared for here. Not left to the perils of the world. They give to me and I give back to them. Only actually I gave to them way before they every even started laying eggs. It's a two way relationship and no exploitation is taking place as far as I can tell.

So, let me guess.. you don't eat animals products at all? Or just buy them from someone else who is "exploiting" the animals?

I'm not trying to be ugly or argumentative. I understand that EVERY life has value. I'm simply asking you to share your perspective that I might try to see it from your point of view. I'm open to learning and trying new things.

i don't think you would choose such a life for yourself or your children. these animals don't enjoy being caged up together and a lot of the breeding isn't consensual at such close quarters. also, when half of the chickens are killed just for being male it's obviously not right and i don't really see any ways around that part. why brag about how good you treat the half that give you something while killing the other half who you have no use for?
i'm sure they have pretty good lives but they're not the best lives possible. you're probably not letting them die of old age or sickness before you eat them and i doubt you would allow anybody to eat you in exchange for a few years of minimal care.
while backyard farms might be better than factory farms, there's no way that everyone can have a backyard farm and there's no way producers can afford to treat the animals right while making a profit.
there's nothing so special about fried eggs or cakes that can justify that sort of suffering for me and i don't eat any eggs, meat or dairy

 

[EggSighted4Life]

why brag about how good you treat the half that give you something while killing the other half who you have no use for?

Nope, all my birds male and female are treated equally. They aren't kept in close quarters and free range every single day... even the males have their own pasture (and 144 sq ft coop for 4 roosters). I don't have a farm. I have a home. And EVERY single animal has it's place in the circle of life. Do you also not swat mosquitoes or kill ants in your home?

I'm not killing those I don't have a use for. We have a use, we eat them. Everything MUST eat. You see it as killing which I could understand if it was for NO reason or just for fun. I see it as harvesting... even plants recognize when they've been invaded and send out distress signal or other chemical compounds to help fight off whatever may be the cause. Plants fight for light and root space. They compete for water. Maybe they don't have a mind or a mouth for us to hear them screaming. I'm only trying to say that I have seen some really cool PBS videos on plants that show their instinct for survival and in the redwoods to the point of even recognizing familial ties and supporting through the root system. If you haven't seen it let me know and I will get you a link. Not as a means of trying to say you are wrong or anything like that. But as a way of sharing one of the coolest videos about plants that I have seen. I would have never imagined the intricacy! I just love nature.

It's true not much of the mating I have seen is consensual, and DEFINITELY made me second guess keeping any cockerel or rooster. But unfortunately that IS nature... A bear will even kill the offspring in order to mate with mama bear. NO way is that consensual. And MANY drakes will take turns mating a female duck in the wild... even to the point of death, NO close quarters required. Nature is sadly brutal.

Thankfully, I'm not a producer. It easily cost me double the market price to raise my meat or eggs, not even counting my time or property/housing. I don't do it for profit. I enjoy the time I spend with the animals. And I'm sorry... as much as I wish I had the conviction to be vegan... it's simply harder to cook that way, and not usually as tasty, In addition to the fact that I love cheese. It is a real learning curve. But I am excited to try those type of dishes at restaurants. Since we started processing our own meat though, our consumption has cut way back and we do look more to buying pasture raised, grass fed beef from our local guy who doesn't use dry feed lots and yes we pay triple for it. But I do know where most of my meat came from (a SINGLE cow) and how it was treated. We also incorporated more beans and such and have vegetarian meals a couple times a week.

But lets be real... it's not like all the over farming going on is benefiting the animals of the wild, EVEN when we are talking about vegetable crops. They are still polluting the air, contaminating the ground, and pushing wild animals out of there natural habitats. Even "organic" pesticides or poison is exactly that... pesticide or poison.

I guess for me it's more about balance. Can you describe what is "the best life possible"? Because yes, I realize that it isn't perfect but I do try to achieve the BEST for ALL involved.

I did think processing our own chicken could possibly make me never eat chicken again. Instead it made me very aware of where the meat comes from when we do it. We started buying only LINE caught fish as well. Does fish count as meat for you to?

Anyways, aside from not eating all together... I'm open to some constructive suggestions for improvement on my part if you know of any.

And yes... it goes much farther than that... we also read all cosmetic and cleaning products to see if they were tested on animals. And I even have doubts about using medications I need that were derived from animals or testing there of. Believe me when I say I'm not just a meat head trying to convince you of something! My conscience runs deep, but SO does my understanding.

 

[birdofhermes]

Nope, all my birds male and female are treated equally. They aren't kept in close quarters and free range every single day... even the males have their own pasture (and 144 sq ft coop for 4 roosters). I don't have a farm. I have a home. And EVERY single animal has it's place in the circle of life. Do you also not swat mosquitoes or kill ants in your home?

I'm not killing those I don't have a use for. We have a use, we eat them. Everything MUST eat. You see it as killing which I could understand if it was for NO reason or just for fun. I see it as harvesting... even plants recognize when they've been invaded and send out distress signal or other chemical compounds to help fight off whatever may be the cause. Plants fight for light and root space. They compete for water. Maybe they don't have a mind or a mouth for us to hear them screaming. I'm only trying to say that I have seen some really cool PBS videos on plants that show their instinct for survival and in the redwoods to the point of even recognizing familial ties and supporting through the root system. If you haven't seen it let me know and I will get you a link. Not as a means of trying to say you are wrong or anything like that. But as a way of sharing one of the coolest videos about plants that I have seen. I would have never imagined the intricacy! I just love nature.

It's true not much of the mating I have seen is consensual, and DEFINITELY made me second guess keeping any cockerel or rooster. But unfortunately that IS nature... A bear will even kill the offspring in order to mate with mama bear. NO way is that consensual. And MANY drakes will take turns mating a female duck in the wild... even to the point of death, NO close quarters required. Nature is sadly brutal.

Thankfully, I'm not a producer. It easily cost me double the market price to raise my meat or eggs, not even counting my time or property/housing. I don't do it for profit. I enjoy the time I spend with the animals. And I'm sorry... as much as I wish I had the conviction to be vegan... it's simply harder to cook that way, and not usually as tasty, In addition to the fact that I love cheese. It is a real learning curve. But I am excited to try those type of dishes at restaurants. Since we started processing our own meat though, our consumption has cut way back and we do look more to buying pasture raised, grass fed beef from our local guy who doesn't use dry feed lots and yes we pay triple for it. But I do know where most of my meat came from (a SINGLE cow) and how it was treated. We also incorporated more beans and such and have vegetarian meals a couple times a week.

But lets be real... it's not like all the over farming going on is benefiting the animals of the wild, EVEN when we are talking about vegetable crops. They are still polluting the air, contaminating the ground, and pushing wild animals out of there natural habitats. Even "organic" pesticides or poison is exactly that... pesticide or poison.

I guess for me it's more about balance. Can you describe what is "the best life possible"? Because yes, I realize that it isn't perfect but I do try to achieve the BEST for ALL involved.

I did think processing our own chicken could possibly make me never eat chicken again. Instead it made me very aware of where the meat comes from when we do it. We started buying only LINE caught fish as well. Does fish count as meat for you to?

Anyways, aside from not eating all together... I'm open to some constructive suggestions for improvement on my part if you know of any.

And yes... it goes much farther than that... we also read all cosmetic and cleaning products to see if they were tested on animals. And I even have doubts about using medications I need that were derived from animals or testing there of. Believe me when I say I'm not just a meat head trying to convince you of something! My conscience runs deep, but SO does my understanding.

plants don't suffer in the same way birds and mammals do because they don't have a nervous system. we have no reason to believe plants are conscious or suffer in any way but if we found out they did then we would be obligated to at least try to find other ways of survival. birds in the wild don't typically rape each other and the males usually have some sort of courtship ritual to lure consenting females. roosters do a dance that the females will duck down for mating in response to. a lot of things are natural but that doesn't mean they're right or that we're not obligated to stop them.
humans have the teeth and digestive system of a frugivore and the fact that you can't just eat a raw chicken or an egg should be your first clue that it isn't something wild humans would eat.
i myself was going to start a backyard egg factory but after my first adopted bird ended up being a rooster i've been forced to rethink the whole thing. i don't think you can give them good lives while continuing to exploit them. they don't want you taking their eggs and would probably prefer them to be fertilized. you should try to give them the respect you'd give to a human...let them run free as they want and feed them well while letting them live out their lives. ideally it's best to just not hatch them outside of their natural habitat. i don't think you can point to harm that other people might be doing, sometimes unintentionally, to justify knowingly causing harm to animals

 

[EggSighted4Life]

plants don't suffer in the same way birds and mammals do because they don't have a nervous system. we have no reason to believe plants are conscious or suffer in any way but if we found out they did then we would be obligated to at least try to find other ways of survival. birds in the wild don't typically rape each other and the males usually have some sort of courtship ritual to lure consenting females. roosters do a dance that the females will duck down for mating in response to. a lot of things are natural but that doesn't mean they're right or that we're not obligated to stop them.
humans have the teeth and digestive system of a frugivore and the fact that you can't just eat a raw chicken or an egg should be your first clue that it isn't something wild humans would eat.
i myself was going to start a backyard egg factory but after my first adopted bird ended up being a rooster i've been forced to rethink the whole thing. i don't think you can give them good lives while continuing to exploit them. they don't want you taking their eggs and would probably prefer them to be fertilized. you should try to give them the respect you'd give to a human...let them run free as they want and feed them well while letting them live out their lives. ideally it's best to just not hatch them outside of their natural habitat. i don't think you can point to harm that other people might be doing, sometimes unintentionally, to justify knowingly causing harm to animals

Enough said, we agree to disagree.

My family also knows that if we were the Donner party, I would want them to eat me if I died first.

Being a full believer in GOD, I feel fully justified in my choice of what I eat. And no I don't "harm it", That would be savage.. I protect and provide for it and then do what must be done when the time comes. Sorry I don't know what a frugavor is. If it means eating fruit count me out because my diabetes will have me dead quickly after I suffer the many side effect from out of control blood sugar. My body doesn't care where the sugar or calories came from it's reaction is still the same. I'm afraid "wild humans" would have eaten a lot more appalling things to us. They were hunters and gatherers (so not educated enough to plant and harvest). People do eat raw eggs and sometimes meat. We chose not to because we have enough education about parasite and salmonella type stuff and because it's tastier after it's browned not because we can't eat them. Like I said some people think hunting wild animals means their animal lived it's "natural" life and is better. I live in the PNW where we see wild deer, elk, turkey, bear, and other animals. Life is extremely hard for them... and yes even short. In nature MOST young do NOT survive into adult hood. That why some animals can reproduce so much faster.... part of the circle of life. It's all connected. Just like removing wolves from Yellowstone created other issues... Removing my much dreaded mosquito would have grave consequences for many species higher in the chain.

Too bad people don't understand the concept of when food and resources get tight... QUIT BREEDING. Animals seem to get that and when things are left as they were originally CREATED populations do control themselves!

No, I wasn't pointing to someone else's intentional or otherwise bad practices as a means of justifying my own. IMO, my practice is ACCEPTABLE and good. But to claim "I don't eat meat" and to think it has no impact on the animals would be ignorance. So now you know that you too can be aware of who you get your fruits and vegetables from and their practices. We try to be sustainable in all that we can.

I do try to give the animals the respect I would give a human... but no matter how many times I say "excuse me sir, can you step out of my way?" They don't respond. Yes I respect them and appreciate them, no they aren't human and won't be treated as such.

Happy to have met you, hope you enjoy being a part of this forum as much as I have. So many really good people here all looking to support each other!

 

[belindaschicks]

The roos have found their permanent home. A CSA humane farm in my home town. They don't kill their chickens for meat. The petting zoo really thought about it and they had a one aggressive rooster that they felt would be a problem. This seems like a great option plus I can also check in and see how my little roos are doing. Feel so fortunanate to have my situation for my roos be a good one. This will be my last hatch experience untill I have my own farm. Till then I will just be ordering from hatcheries.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

The roos have found their permanent home. A CSA humane farm in my home town. They don't kill their chickens for meat. The petting zoo really thought about it and they had a one aggressive rooster that they felt would be a problem. This seems like a great option plus I can also check in and see how my little roos are doing. Feel so fortunanate to have my situation for my roos be a good one. This will be my last hatch experience untill I have my own farm. Till then I will just be ordering from hatcheries.

So cool! Many people do find homes for their roos. Glad you were able to find one that you feel comfortable about.

Imagine an aggressive rooster at a petting zoo?!

I have still gotten boys from the hatchery/LFS. So you might still have to deal with it. Once was even 50% boys. But my overall average is in lines with the 10% margin of error that most places report.

 

[Chickassan]

I'm glad it worked out for your boys.I never did ask why you had to rehome your guys.

The roos have found their permanent home. A CSA humane farm in my home town. They don't kill their chickens for meat. The petting zoo really thought about it and they had a one aggressive rooster that they felt would be a problem. This seems like a great option plus I can also check in and see how my little roos are doing. Feel so fortunanate to have my situation for my roos be a good one. This will be my last hatch experience untill I have my own farm. Till then I will just be ordering from hatcheries.

 

[belindaschicks]

My city doesn't allow roos unless you have 5 acres of land.

 

[Brahma Chicken5000]

My city doesn't allow roos unless you have 5 acres of land.

I plan on getting 2 Bantam cockerels as house chickens.

 

[speckledhen]

I just got back to reading a couple of the posts from @birdofhermes. Exploiting my chickens by taking their eggs? I can guarantee you that not one of my birds is "exploited", not the hens or the spoiled roosters. They don't care if I take their eggs unless a hen is broody already. Many hens never, ever go broody--chickens are not the wild animals you describe, not our modern day breeds. Most of my hens have not been broody one single time, something that has changed from their wild nature and something that would make an entire variety die out in the wild. They will eat their own eggs without a thought if one breaks in the nest or on the floor. That is natural. They'll on occasion eat their own chicks as they hatch. Nature is brutal.

As for rooster behavior, they do court, sure, but they also force mating on hens. It's a natural drive in nature to propagate the species and an unwilling hen may find herself even attacked by a rooster. Not all roosters behave the same way, but if hens refuse to mate and the rooster won't insist, they don't reproduce. The rooster has this in his brain somewhere. This has nothing to do with me exploiting them or the space they have. They have very roomy enclosures in the barn and they all get to free range. Again, their own nature is not as gentle as you describe. With chickens, it's not rape, it's nature, plain and simple. Nature is brutal.

If you let them run free as they want, they will all die. This ain't a Disney movie. Predators would pick them off one or several at a time. Most domestic chickens are not wild jungle fowl and cannot fly to safety. We protect them as best we can while allowing them as much free time to forage as we are able. Nature, again, is brutal.

My "exploited" chickens are living to old age. When they get old age issues like arthritis, we take care of them. In the wild, they would be dead meat. My 11 year old crippled hen lays eggs still. She doesn't give a crap if I take them because she's never been broody one day in her life. In fact, she's been known to lift up off her egg to show it to me for me to take. The eggs are not fertile because I cannot allow a rooster to harass and hurt her in her condition. Natural? No, but necessary for Amanda's well-being. Is Amanda exploited? No, she is cared for and respected in the most extreme and loving manner you could imagine.