run mud smells like a pig's sty and low tide....

[ontimeborzoi]

Well, dryness is pretty much the only point when we are talking chickens.....

 

[Bear Foot Farm]

Quote: You're hauling in bags when what you need is a dump truck load

Adding organic material will only make it hold more moisture, and create more odor as it rots

 

[jackson41]

clay and sand are both used in cob building......the combination of sand and clay will not result in loose clay. it will become more bonding......I have clay soil and the last thing i would add to my garden would be sand

from Wash ST U

"When one mixes a sandy and a clay soil together, the
large pore spaces of the sandy soil are filled with the smaller clay particles. This results in a heavier,
denser soil with less total pore space than either the sandy or the clay soil alone."

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Amendments 2.pdf

You are right about cob, clay and sand mixed with water will make a beautiful earth oven, home or coop. It also needs straw or some type of fiber. We built a lovely Earth Oven in our back yard and cook wonderful meals and pizza. We have to keep it covered to protect it from rain or snow to keep it dry or it will fall apart!
Cob is not cement but works well in dry climates.

 

[Keltara]

where do you think the sand is going? mixing with the clay below.....try digging a hole in the run

Hmmmm. I’m wondering if you actually took the time to read my post. I also wonder if you have an experience with sand or are just taking the word of articles that you have seen on the Internet. As I stated, due to cleaning and elements (cleaning, meaning some sand coming out of the run during the cleaning process), and (elements meaning due to rain run off and sometimes wind), the sand does need to be topped off from time to time. Just like the inside of my raised, wood and linoleum floored coop which does not have any clay in it. My chickens are in an environment that is less habitable to mites, fleas, ticks and any bacteria that lingers in chicken poop. In the summer time, my coop and run are completely odor free thus no problems with flies. The best conditions for chickens are feces free, dry conditions. My chicken run and chicken coop are completely feces free and dry (because of sand). I can pick up my chickens at any given time and don’t have to worry about poop on their feet. It is a wonderful thing walking in and through a chicken run with a sand floor. Even when it is wet, it is much cleaner than any dirt, compost, or pine shaving run. So it is amazing to me that you will sit at your computer and tell the individuals that actually utilize sand with great success that they are wrong about their results. It’s actually quite laughable. Oh, and as far as digging a hole in my run?. . .I have a layer of soft well drained sand on the surface. What would be the point of digging a hole? Sand is AWESOME.✿◠‿◠

 

[ontimeborzoi]

I'm with Keltara totally. Ask the people who actually have animals and have no issues....if horse trainers put sand in their arenas and round pens, why do you suppose that is?! Go ahead and put down a nice layer of straw. Let it get wet, add a little more....in six months you will have a slimy slick stinky mess that is also heavy when you go to pitchfork it out of the run so you can try something else.
I have extensive experience with kennel runs and substrates. I have tried straw, mulch, heavy gravel, fine gravel and sand. Over the course of many years I have learned that sand is perfect. Easily cleaned, drains and dries fast, is comfortable for animals to stand or lay on, cheap to top off...what more could one ask?
Speckledhen has an excellent article on managing mud. Says exactly the same thing. Sand. Lots of it.
I do add leaves and stuff for my chickens to dig thru in their run, but it goes on top of a nice deep layer of sand, and I can rake it out when they are done having their fun.

This reminds me of when a friend called me to ask about how to keep grass in dog runs. I always kept my runs in grass and they were gorgeous, but when I told her about the required frequent mowing and considerable care to accomplish, she called someone who had mostly bare dirt with spots of surviving grass, and took that persons advice. ??!?

 

[debid]

...

Adding organic material will only make it hold more moisture, and create more odor as it rots

No, it won't. Composting doesn't smell. It's not the same as "rotting". I have a run with chicken-aided composting leaves on clay soil and it DOES NOT STINK. Ever. It is not full of flies. It is not full of bird mites. It is not dirty. It is not causing disease or filth tracked into the coop. It is also not nearly as soggy as the unamended parts of the yard after yesterday's heavy rainfall. Those are full of puddled water on top of clay soil. Mud pits are everywhere except the garden and the coop. Gee, wonder why?

If you have the opinion that sand is a better run material, fine. But don't insist that everything written on the subject of clay soil and composting to improve it is incorrect simply because you like your sand.

edited by staff

 

[Chris09]

Wow that should result in a nice bed of concrete over time

How would adding Sand to Clay make concrete? Your missing some key ingredients.

Chris

 

[debid]

How would adding Sand to Clay make concrete? Your missing some key ingredients.

Chris

It doesn't. Mixing fine sand (like play sand) into clay soil makes the substance even more dense and heavy which makes it harder to work with while not improving absorption or stopping puddling. You'll get an even harder crust on top when it's dry because it doesn't do anything for crusting either. Not "concrete" exactly but not fun stuff either. You can mix in larger inorganic particles (construction sand, gravel, etc.) and in large enough quantities, the water will run between those particles allowing some drainage. But what you really need to fix the problem and make a healthy soil is coarse organics. That's not peat moss, it's leaves or wood chips or something similar to create air pockets and give the beneficial microbes an environment where they can thrive. Over time, mixing compost into the clay changes it dramatically to an absorbent, non-crusting, fertile soil.

 

[Chris09]

clay and sand are both used in cob building......the combination of sand and clay will not result in loose clay. it will become more bonding......I have clay soil and the last thing i would add to my garden would be sand

from Wash ST U

"When one mixes a sandy and a clay soil together, the
large pore spaces of the sandy soil are filled with the smaller clay particles. This results in a heavier,
denser soil with less total pore space than either the sandy or the clay soil alone."

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda chalker-scott/horticultural myths_files/Myths/Amendments 2.pdf

The size of the sand makes a world of a difference, one of the best thing I added to my garden to help break up the clay was coarse (1-2 Millimeter) sand.

Chris

 

[Chris09]

It doesn't. Mixing fine sand (like play sand) into clay soil makes the substance even more dense and heavy which makes it harder to work with while not improving absorption or stopping puddling. You'll get an even harder crust on top when it's dry because it doesn't do anything for crusting either. Not "concrete" exactly but not fun stuff either. You can mix in larger inorganic particles (construction sand, gravel, etc.) and in large enough quantities, the water will run between those particles allowing some drainage. But what you really need to fix the problem and make a healthy soil is coarse organics. That's not peat moss, it's leaves or wood chips or something similar to create air pockets and give the beneficial microbes an environment where they can thrive. Over time, mixing compost into the clay changes it dramatically to an absorbent, non-crusting, fertile soil.

I know it don't make concrete that way I said, "Your missing some key ingredients''

I will give you the wood chip (to a point) but the leaves don't help much unless you add some coarse sand.