run mud smells like a pig's sty and low tide....

[jamband]

Both Organic material and Sand will improve drainage and soil texture. (You have to know what size sand to use)

I know that the OP's post has to do with a chicken run and not a garden but I will use a gardening example.

Typical you have to add 6 to 8 inches of good organic material to improve clay soil, now the typical garden is only tilled at the depth of 8 inches so that means that you have to add 50% of good organic mater to improve clay soil. The same amount as what you are saying one would have to of sand to improve clay soil.
Now organic material will help with drainage but it also retains a fare amount of moisture and that is the last thing you need around livestock/chickens. What you DO want is something that will improve drainage and also will not retain a lot of moisture. Course Sand and or Fine Gravel will do just that, it will improve drainage and it retains very little moisture.


Chris

incorporating organic matter at much less than 50% will improve clay(not the point I know). just mulching with wood improves it some....... in term of tilling i imagine that 8 inches of organic matter woul likely equate to less than a 25% mixture due to clay be compacted and compost for example being fluffy and airy....but not the point.

 

[Keltara]

AND Organic matter improves clay drainage while sand at less than 50% reduces drainage......I was never talking about gardens or compost. Just soil drainage.......If you find dump trucks of sand (which is rather bad for the environment) your answer than fine.....But there are free alternatives that will give you a much more sustainable long term result.

I don't know where you get your 50% statistic. I have clay below my construction sand and my run is extremely well drained, dries faster than dirt or compost, is very cost effective, is easy to clean the feces out of, and a very healthy environment for chickens. Dry run, and feces free is what chickens need. Continually composting a chicken run means continual feces in a chicken run. I'm am so happy that my hens have sand in their coop and run. They have very clean quarters and as much as you want to discount the benefits of using sand on top of clay, the proof is in the pudding. I have clay with construction sand on top of it and it is extremely successful. Now if you want to throw a bunch of leaves and compostable matter in your run, and never clean the feces out, but let it go through the decomposition process, that's great! But you really need to stop telling people that a chicken run will be ineffective with sand because you have read some articles that talked about amending soil for gardening purposes. We are talking about chicken runs.

Bottom line:
Chickens are healthiest in feces free dry conditions. Sand makes that not only attainable, but also very easy. Construction sand on top of clay inside a “chicken run” does not turn the earth into cement like conditions. It promotes excellent drainage and a very healthy environment. If you want your animals living on top of a compost heap, great. As for me personally, my hens will be in clean, dry, well drained area.​

Kelly

✿Our Country Chronicles​

✿​

​

 

[Chris09]

incorporating organic matter at much less than 50% will improve clay(not the point I know). just mulching with wood improves it some....... in term of tilling i imagine that 8 inches of organic matter woul likely equate to less than a 25% mixture due to clay be compacted and compost for example being fluffy and airy....but not the point.

It is more than 25% organic matter to improve good clay soil.
Now that someone with 30+ years of gardening and 6 years of Horticulture telling you that but you can believe what you want.

As I said in my lat post, "'organic material will help with drainage but it also retains a fare amount of moisture and that is the last thing you need around livestock/chickens. What you DO want is something that will improve drainage and also will not retain a lot of moisture. Course Sand and or Fine Gravel will do just that, it will improve drainage and it retains very little moisture."


Chris

 

[jamband]

It is more than 25% organic matter to improve good clay soil.
Now that someone with 30+ years of gardening and 6 years of Horticulture telling you that but you can believe what you want.

Chris

ummmmm i said adding 8 inches of matter and tilling it 8 inches would not result in 50/50 mix......plus any addition of organic matter will improve it somewhat

 

[Keltara]

Just because a trainer does something doesn't mean its good..... Look at what nature does.

That's a silly statement. If our backyard chickens lived completely in "nature" that would be one thing. They however serve a purpose. Eggs and meat. Because they serve our purpose, they are subject to the conditions that we keep them in. That is why we build a coop to keep them safe from predators at night. That is why they have run, to keep them safe when they are not able to free range ie: the middle of winter. We have a duty to provide the best possible conditions for them. If a "trainer" has found success in using sand to keep their arenas and round pens dry and clean, then it means it is exactly good. If myself and others in this thread are letting the original poster know that they have had GREAT success using construction sand on top of clay for a chicken run, then it means it IS good. Not everybody has multiple pens to rotate their chickens through. Construction sand is a great run surface for those who have only one designated area even when it is put on top of clay. I am proof of that.

 

[jamband]

I don't know where you get your 50% statistic. I have clay below my construction sand and my run is extremely well drained, dries faster than dirt or compost, is very cost effective, is easy to clean the feces out of, and a very healthy environment for chickens. Dry run, and feces free is what chickens need. Continually composting a chicken run means continual feces in a chicken run. I'm am so happy that my hens have sand in their coop and run. They have very clean quarters and as much as you want to discount the benefits of using sand on top of clay, the proof is in the pudding. I have clay with construction sand on top of it and it is extremely successful. Now if you want to throw a bunch of leaves and compostable matter in your run, and never clean the feces out, but let it go through the decomposition process, that's great! But you really need to stop telling people that a chicken run will be ineffective with sand because you have read some articles that talked about amending soil for gardening purposes. We are talking about chicken runs.

Bottom line:
Chickens are healthiest in feces free dry conditions. Sand makes that not only attainable, but also very easy. Construction sand on top of clay inside a “chicken run” does not turn the earth into cement like conditions. It promotes excellent drainage and a very healthy environment. If you want your animals living on top of a compost heap, great. As for me personally, my hens will be in clean, dry, well drained area.​

Kelly

✿Our Country Chronicles​

✿​

​

From research done at Universities. I already posted one if you care to read it and there are 3 more posted on here. Are you really denying that the sand and clay mix over time?

Like i said if dump trucks of sand is your choice fine.....but there are other cheaper, more sustainable ways. No one cleans poop up for wild ducks, geese, etc nor did anyone pick up poop from Jungle fowl. .......Nature can and will handle things when in the right proportions.

and if you want a bigger issue read this......http://www.usatoday.com/money/indus...12-01-08/fracking-boom-sand-mining/52398528/1

 

[jamband]

That's a silly statement. If our backyard chickens lived completely in "nature" that would be one thing. They however serve a purpose. Eggs and meat. Because they serve our purpose, they are subject to the conditions that we keep them in. That is why we build a coop to keep them safe from predators at night. That is why they have run, to keep them safe when they are not able to free range ie: the middle of winter. We have a duty to provide the best possible conditions for them. If a "trainer" has found success in using sand to keep their arenas and round pens dry and clean, then it means it is exactly good. If myself and others in this thread are letting the original poster know that they have had GREAT success using construction sand on top of clay for a chicken run, then it means it IS good. Not everybody has multiple pens to rotate their chickens through. Construction sand is a great run surface for those who have only one designated area even when it is put on top of clay. I am proof of that.

imitating nature is silly??? hmmmm its seem to do a good job for a few million years but we can do better? I am seeing your side is just about your needs and not the larger good so you probably won't see the point.....

Also lots of trainers beat animals to break or "train" them.....shall we assume this the proper approach? I mean "farmers" force feed animals to reach wanted weight too. Just because people do it does not make it best practice

 

[Chris09]

Quote:

From research done at Universities. I already posted one if you care to read it and there are 3 more posted on here. Are you really denying that the sand and clay mix over time?

Like i said if dump trucks of sand is your choice fine.....but there are other cheaper, more sustainable ways. No one cleans poop up for wild ducks, geese, etc nor did anyone pick up poop from Jungle fowl. .......Nature can and will handle things when in the right proportions.

and if you want a bigger issue read this......http://www.usatoday.com/money/indus...12-01-08/fracking-boom-sand-mining/52398528/1

How can you compare a flock of chickens in say a 25x25 area and a flock of birds that has no boundaries?
How many times do you think that flock of wild birds poop in the same place compared to a flock of birds 25x 25 coop?


Chris

 

[Chris09]

imitating nature is silly??? hmmmm its seem to do a good job for a few million years but we can do better? I am seeing your side is just about your needs and not the larger good so you probably won't see the point.....

Also lots of trainers beat animals to break or "train" them.....shall we assume this the proper approach? I mean "farmers" force feed animals to reach wanted weight too. Just because people do it does not make it best practice

Quote: Are you a farmer, have you been to a farm that does this? If not please DO NOT spread hearsay.


Chris

 

[jamband]

Quote:

How can you compare a flock of chickens in say a 25x25 area and a flock of birds that has no boundaries?
How many times do you think that flock of wild birds poop in the same place compared to a flock of birds 25x 25 coop?


Chris

ahhh now we are catching on......maybe the underlying issue is permanent runs and overstocking?

25x25 is 625 sq ft.... about 1/64th of an acre........long term sustainable #'s for that area is less than 1 chicken