Self Blue (Lavender) Silkie Thread

Quote:
Hold on---getting an answer worked up.

OK...

Chicken plumage contains only two pigments: eumelanin (black) and pheomelanin (red). St the cellular level, these colours work a bit differently.

These pigments can be diluted or enhanced, moved to specific parts of the feather or specific parts of the bird’s body.

There are a number of genes that control plumage colour and pattern. They all work together to create the colour and pattern of any individual bird. Each gene has two or more alleles, or alternatives, that a bird can carry for that gene. Thus every bird has every gene, but what differs is the specific set of alleles the bird carries.

In general, a bird carries two copies of every gene (one copy on each chromosome), but the alleles may or may not be the same for a particular gene. When they are the same, the bird is said to be homozygous. When they are not the same, the bird is heterozygous. This statement relates to individual genes. Thus a bird can be homozygous for some genes and heterozygous for others. When a bird is homozygous (sometimes abbreviated “hom”), that variation of the gene is the only on present in the bird, and it will display and interact with other genes. There is no alternative form of the gene present to alter the gene’s action. However, when a bird is heterozygous (het) for a gene, how that gene pair interacts with other genes is determined by the dominance of the two alleles. Dominance is between two alleles of the same gene; it has no bearing on the interaction between separate genes.

A dominant allele expresses, even if only one copy is present; it suppresses the effects of other allele.

A recessive allele cannot express when a more dominant allele is present. (However, for some genes recessive alleles are leaky, and will give some indication of their presence—a mottled bird might show the barest bits of mottling, a white bird may occasionally grow a non-white feather or two).

Incompletely dominant means that there is an intermediate result between homozygous dominant allele and homozygous recessive allele. Blue is an example of an incompletely dominant gene: Splash is homozygous dominant, not-blue (undlluted black pigment) is homozygous recessive. Blue is the heterozygous phenotype. Another classic example is a pink sweet pea from a red parent and a white parent.

Co-dominant means that both alleles express. The sweet pea mentioned above would have equal amounts of both red and white.

As stated earlier, the genes all interact. So in a bird who is wheaten and blue, the blue gene dilutes the black pigment that is present in the bird. It does not create a completely blue bird, but rather dilutes only the black. Likewise a partridge with blue becomes a blue partridge, or a birchen with blue becomes a silver blue (hobby names can be unpredictable).

I erred when I said co-dominant (I will say, though, that I said “may be close to co-dominance”) as co-dominance relates to the interaction between alleles of the same gene. I do not know of a term that incorporates this concept into separate genes. Epistatic and hypostatic are the inter-gene terms that more or less correlate to dominant and recessive; it’s not an exact correlation, though.

Let me say that I do not have a good working knowledge of how the blue and lavender genes work at the cellular level; if I did, I might better be able to explain why they work together as they do. Maybe Henk or David or Tim can better explain.

My intention was to say that both the characteristics of the blue gene (darker head, hackles and saddle (on males) and the characteristics of the lavender gene (strong and even dilution of all pigment) express in a bird who is blue (Bl/bl+) and lavender (lav/lav). The amount of difference between the head & hackles versus the remainder of the plumage is likely to be less than in a bird who is not also lavender. For some reason, the birds who are both seem to be slightly darker than those who are only lavender.

Likewise with splash, a bird who is Bl/Bl and also lavender (lav/lav) will display characteristics of both phenotypes.
 
I'm really sorry that there is so much misinformation and deception out there about this color. If it is done correctly, it is so easy.
Breed lavender to lavender = you get lavender.
Breed lavender to black = you get black silkies carrying 1 copy of the lavender gene (AKA lavender/black splits)
Breed lavender/black splits to lavender = get 50% splits and 50% lavenders
breed splits to splits = get 25% true blacks, 50% splits and 25% lavenders

I don't know about breeding them to blues or splashes because I was told by someone I trust and respect that doing that was stupid and would only be confusing.......it would be too difficult to determine what genotype the birds were carrying by looking at them. So I didn't do that, and will not do that. Some people have and y'all are talking about the results of that.


Know your breeder, and know what your birds came out of......and always, buyer beware.

P.S. Yes, the lavenders are weaker, but not as weak as they were when we first started. It is not due to inbreeding, both bren and I have used different black lines to cross on - because we thought that might be the case. I've talked to other knowledgeable genetics people and lavender is weaker even in other chicken breeds, so it may be something at the genetic level. Brenda is correct that if you get them hatched and past a week old - they are as healthy as any other silkie in your chicken house. They lay consistently, breed well and are no more susceptible to disease, worms, bugs or anything else than any other bird.

Just my 2 cents!

Deb
 
Thanks for the detailed reply, Sonoran.

I have another question. Supposedly the lav gene is autosomal. If that is the case, why are the males generally a bit darker and have the darker streamers that I've seen. This may hark back to your statement about how the lav gene works on the cellular level. Is there another allele that is involved?
 
Autosomal means that the gene is inherited equally by both male and female offspring, and that the females have two copies. It really doesn't have anything to do with separate phenotypes for male and females, which is common for many varieties. You can look at it as being similar to males typically growing significantly more facial and body hair than females. Buff males tend to be darker than buff females, so this is similar. Not sure about the streamers unless the bird is also blue?

The E-gene is the basis for each bird, and what colours or patterns the bird can display. It is possible to build most varieties on several different e-alleles, but there are often some slight differences--sometimes significant one. In Sigi's & David's book they compare the genotype to soup, with the e-allele being the stock--different types of stock changes the soup more than just about any other single ingredient.

I am pretty sure that there are at least two common e-alleles found in lavender silkies. Extended black (E) is probably the ones that are having difficulty hatching that Deb and Bren mentioned, and should not have any stripes on the down. Brown (e^b) is most likely the ones with striping, and is the most common alleel for silkies.
 
Wow ---- my head is spinning . So is the black gene what is causeing the weakness in lav.? I'm really very confused , I've tried rereading ,to see if I have missunderstood but I'm only confuseing my self more . I have A question if I may ask . If you do have ( for lack of a better way to say -- Lav. - cross - splash ) could you breed black split to them to bring lav. out in them ? I realize this could take a good amount of time . Just currious to what a person can do to bring the lav. gene out in a splash -cross- Lavender ?
Thank you Tammy .B
 
If I understand your question correctly to be about breeding to eliminate the blue gene, you can

1) breed to a black (carrying splt to lav or not) and eliminate all chicks that appear to be blue (assuming that the lavender and blue gene birds are blue and not splash; if splash, you would need to breed a 2nd generation back to black, and you will have no way of knowing which of the blacks also carry lav in that 2nd generation. If you breed the 2nd generation to lavender, you would have solved that problem.)

2) breed to a lavender who does NOT carry blue, and eliminate all chicks that show any blue or splash traits.

You would basically be breeding with the blue gene as if you want black birds. Just you have lavender added that you want to keep, making it a slightly more complex breeding.


It is probably less time and simpler to acquire birds who are lavender and not-blue, but I understand that we often have to work with what we have, not the perfect pairing that we'd prefer.
 
Thank you Sonoran Silkies . Yes I thought so also but , then was thinking what if the eggs I'm purchaseing are like the many I'm hearing about . Just have alot running thru my mind right now ( kinda thinking out loud ) Thank you for answering - Tammy .B
 
Ask questions such as whether the line does or does not carry the blue gene, ask for photos of baby chicks as well as mature birds--don't necessarily ask for photos of the exact parents, but rather representative samples, and above all go on reputation.
 
I want to thank everyone for contributing in the last few days. I got a little woozy reading all the answers and am saving the last few to read again, but I have to say... I don' t think anyone would mislead you on purpose. Genetics are not always simple in chickens... I have had Lavender running through my lines for years... and I have sold chicks as Splash before and have had pictures sent asking what this solid light color is... I have never tried to bring it out til now, but love what it does to the Blues and Splash... personal preference...
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I bought 3 Lavenders from Deb.. (Thanks so much, Deb!!!) because I know she has raised them for years and knows about them. I am still working on Lavender coops and am saving all of my Lavender babies right now. I'm not even keeping the splits for my Lavender coops because I know some of these may not end up solid.
I have gotten a lot of mis-information as well, from several different well-known Silkie sources that truly believe differently, and I am still up in the air about the simple forms of explanations of Andalusian Blue and Lavender... except that Lavender X Lavender gives you Lavender.... and I'm still confirming that for myself
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Especially since I just found out I have an Isabel? which I LOVE that is mostly white with lavender in her wings and red freckles... and I was told she is a Porcelain missing one Lavender gene. She is adorable and I got her from a White to Red Pyle cross... (how confusing is that?!) See her here http://www.indigoegg.us/2010SPRING.html ...and also the one boy that I got from Deb that is stunning is on this page.
Take it easy on those who are new to the color and help them. Silkies are such fun!!!! whatever color they are!!! Blessings! Have a fun day!!
 
Those of you that no who I was having the problem with I just wanted to say that she is correcting the problem so....
When she does I will post new pics and we can see what ya all think.
 

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