Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[Perris]

Scoop poops in high-traffic areas several times daily to reduce worm eggs in the soil

It's likely chicks hatched & raised by actual chickens on dirt develop a much stronger natural defense to the dangers lurking in that dirt. In that case, natural wormers would simply augment their already better-equipped immune systems. So those of you with broodies raising your babies may be apples to my incubated oranges.

You make a lot of great points; these two in particular highlight other possibilities.

A mobile coop is a good way to keep worm contamination in any particular area low. (It has other benefits too.) I can't help thinking that a fixed coop must act as a reservoir for any pest or disease that likes chicken.

In addition to the early exposure to, and development of immunity to, whatever is in the ground because the broody takes them out and starts them rummaging about in it at a couple of days old, home-bred chicks have significant additional immunity to local pests and diseases that has been passed on from their mum, in the egg.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119440121
This may be particularly useful to protect them in the first few weeks, while the chicks are getting their first exposure, working like the maternal antibodies in the colostrum of a mammal's first milk to protect the newborn until it develops its own. I think medicated chick feed is a poor substitute for that, in so far as it adds nothing to the chicks' immunity, but rather interferes with the uptake of vit B (if it's working as intended).

So perhaps we should distinguish between home-bred chicks and bought in chicks, as well as incubated and brooded chicks.

 

[MaryJanet]

You make a lot of great points; these two in particular highlight other possibilities.

A mobile coop is a good way to keep worm contamination in any particular area low. (It has other benefits too.) I can't help thinking that a fixed coop must act as a reservoir for any pest or disease that likes chicken.

In addition to the early exposure to, and development of immunity to, whatever is in the ground because the broody takes them out and starts them rummaging about in it at a couple of days old, home-bred chicks have significant additional immunity to local pests and diseases that has been passed on from their mum, in the egg.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119440121
This may be particularly useful to protect them in the first few weeks, while the chicks are getting their first exposure, working like the maternal antibodies in the colostrum of a mammal's first milk to protect the newborn until it develops its own. I think medicated chick feed is a poor substitute for that, in so far as it adds nothing to the chicks' immunity, but rather interferes with the uptake of vit B (if it's working as intended).

So perhaps we should distinguish between home-bred chicks and bought in chicks, as well as incubated and brooded chicks.

If I've understood the paper, the eggs must have been laid by the hen.

At the risk of stating the obvious and with apologies, people without roosters can't rely on this aspect of chick immunity development.

 

[Perris]

If I've understood the paper, the eggs must have been laid by the hen.

At the risk of stating the obvious and with apologies, people without roosters can't rely on this aspect of chick immunity development.

I don't understand your first point; can you clarify please?

Indeed, and no apologies necessary, on the second; some can't or don't want roos, and some people can't or don't want to free range. I was just trying to add to the variables at play when we talk about worms and worming. I think keeping as close to nature as possible is usually better, but I don't mean to judge those who think otherwise, or who think the same but aren't able to get as close as I can.

 

[MaryJanet]

I don't understand your first point; can you clarify please?

Indeed, and no apologies necessary, on the second; some can't or don't want roos, and some people can't or don't want to free range. I was just trying to add to the variables at play when we talk about worms and worming. I think keeping as close to nature as possible is usually better, but I don't mean to judge those who think otherwise, or who think the same but aren't able to get as close as I can.

I was thinking that eggs from another location provided to a broody would carry the antibodies of the laying hen's location. It's hard to know whether her antibodies will be beneficial. I suppose if the eggs were sourced from a nearby flock, there could be a good fit.

 

[Perris]

I was thinking that eggs from another location provided to a broody would carry the antibodies of the laying hen's location. It's hard to know whether her antibodies will be beneficial. I suppose if the eggs were sourced from a nearby flock, there could be a good fit.

ah yes, indeed; home-bred eggs and bought-in hatching eggs need to be distinguished too. And the nearer any bought-in eggs were sourced, the more likely that they'll be carrying antibodies against whatever's in the area.

 

[Ladies-Eight]

Ex Batts good morning one and all!

Hubby is home.

Temperature is in the 50s and cloudy.

Have a great day!

 

[Perris]

that's great news! Here's to a speedy recovery back to full health!

 

[ManueB]

@Shadrach I would be very grateful if you could give us some health news ! It's been a while now and if you're not recovering, I will begin to worry you are in serious trouble .

ah yes, indeed; home-bred eggs and bought-in hatching eggs need to be distinguished too. And the nearer any bought-in eggs were sourced, the more likely that they'll be carrying antibodies against whatever's in the area.

I have tapeworms (cestodes) in my flock ; about a third of my chickens have them. Contrary to roundworms, tapeworms have an indirect life cycle, they need a secondary host, meaning a chicken will catch them by eating for example most usually flies, or mice, or snails that are infected, so not all chickens in the flock are necessarily affected. Also contrary to roundworms, it is not possible to have tapeworms and be unaware of it, as they reproduce by shedding live segments in the chickens poop, that look like moving rice grains. Those segments are then ingested by the secondary host.
There are four different type of cestodes that affect chickens, not equally harmful, and from what information I could find the only way to differentiate them is by doing a fecal float.

I always say that I don't like to draw conclusions from my single experience, so I don't make generalisation from what I have observed, which doesn't seem to fit completely with the studies. For one thing my chickens have access to many preventive herbs either in the garden or in the food I give them, and it has not stopped them being infected. These include wormwood (artemisia annua), oregano, thyme, pumpkin seeds, garlic, fig tree, chenopodium, and probably others that i’m forgetting. I have also always given my chickens preventive herbal dewormers, such as verm-x in the first year and then a french product called soluvert, and also thyme, wormwood and oregano infusions about twice a month. It is of course possible that the herbs did slow the infection, I can't know, but they did not stop it.

My flock consists of seventeen chickens : eight chickens that hatched here under a broody but from neighbour's eggs ; seven chickens that arrived here as POL pullets either as rescues or bought ; and two chickens given by a neighbour. The local origins of the chickens has made no difference on whether or not they caught the worms, in fact, the chickens who have them mostly hatched here. The main factor I can identify is that the chickens who caught the worms are mostly the ones who completely free range on the property. Only one of the chickens who is confined in my chicken yard of about 500m2/5400 square feet has the cestodes. This makes me think that either the chickens confined inside the yard eat less live animals and more commercial food, either they didn't have access to the secondary host that carried the worms (the chickens that don't free range have far less occasion to eat mice for example than their free-rangers colleagues).

However I have also noted that the only chicken whose health seemed affected by the worms, is a chicken bought as a pullet. All the chickens that hatched here and have tapeworms are doing good health wise, at least for the time being. But this was true before they had worms, and the hen that seemed to be affected already was unhealthy when I bought her.

Unfortunately I can't find the link to it just now, but one of the most useful study I read differentiated anthelmintic properties of plants for different type of worms and in vitro vs in vivo, and the difference was quite significant.

Tax : This pullet, Annette, has cestodes and i’m not surprised - she wanders all around the place, eat all kind of strange food and barely touches the stuff in the feeder.

 

[Perris]

Thanks for that very useful contribution to the discussion @ManueB .
My understanding is that healthy chickens will usually have some worms and other ecto and endoparasites, but not so badly that it impacts their health. So that seems consistent with

it has not stopped them being infected

the only chicken whose health seemed affected by the worms, is a chicken bought as a pullet

and

the hen that seemed to be affected already was unhealthy when I bought her

which is also consistent with the argument in some studies that the first couple of weeks are crucial, when the chick's immune system is developing (as it needs priming in the environment, after hatch).

 

[HiEverybirdy]

@Shadrach I would be very grateful if you could give us some health news ! It's been a while now and if you're not recovering, I will begin to worry you are in serious trouble .

x2, and wondering after Henry & the gang.

I always say that I don't like to draw conclusions from my single experience, so I don't make generalisation from what I have observed, which doesn't seem to fit completely with the studies.

I'd always read tapeworms were incredibly rare in chickens, but something great about this thread is how we dig into what we read, hear, and observe without blindly recycling internet axioms about chicken care.

The international aspect of the thread is fascinating, too, with both hemispheres represented. It's been eye-opening to learn about different regulations and types of medications and feed available from place to place. @Shadrach sets up epic threads.

Tax: AGC supervising the Pecksavator as she unearths a sapling. Cold weather must've driven the good snacks further underground because the chickens are digging a lot lately. And nobirdy can dig like Peck.

She almost had the whole tree out by the time she was done.