Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[ManueB]

We do free-feeding. Birds have access to multiple feed stations all day long.

I am prone to think this notion of free feeding may not work the same in confinement as it does when birds range. I think when birds range all day, even if it's in a limited space lile some of mine, it doesn't make such a difference.
I have been free feeding dry types of food for four years now and what I'm seeing is that chickens certainly don't eat continuously all day, if only because once they move away from where the feeders are located, they will only come back to feed when they make a conscious decision to move to where the feed stations are.
This happens more than the three times a day I give them fermented food and wet mash, but not more I think than five times a day.
The only times I've seen chickens act like they are spending much more time at the feeders, are when they are making the transition from set time feeding to free feeding : when I brought adult birds in that had been used to being restrained feeding.

(Leaving dry food accessible at all time has not had any impact that I can tell on the fact that I have two hens turning broody far too often, two that turn broody once or twice a year, and 11 that have not shown signs of turning broody, eight of which still could as they are less than a year.).

 

[Perris]

I am prone to think this notion of free feeding may not work the same in confinement as it does when birds range

I concur.

 

[MaryJanet]

I am prone to think this notion of free feeding may not work the same in confinement as it does when birds range. I think when birds range all day, even if it's in a limited space lile some of mine, it doesn't make such a difference.
I have been free feeding dry types of food for four years now and what I'm seeing is that chickens certainly don't eat continuously all day, if only because once they move away from where the feeders are located, they will only come back to feed when they make a conscious decision to move to where the feed stations are.
This happens more than the three times a day I give them fermented food and wet mash, but not more I think than five times a day.
The only times I've seen chickens act like they are spending much more time at the feeders, are when they are making the transition from set time feeding to free feeding : when I brought adult birds in that had been used to being restrained feeding.

(Leaving dry food accessible at all time has not had any impact that I can tell on the fact that I have two hens turning broody far too often, two that turn broody once or twice a year, and 11 that have not shown signs of turning broody, eight of which still could as they are less than a year.).

Same as at my place, except I hand feed only once a day.

As there are treadle feeders, the hens have to make a decision to stop scratching and then recall how to open the feeders.

 

[Shadrach]

can I come back to this? (because it's not possible/desirable in the article comments)

Be my guest.

 

[Shadrach]

I am prone to think this notion of free feeding may not work the same in confinement as it does when birds range.

I agree and said as much in the article.
In the studies relevant to the two feeding states the birds were confined.
One can either believe the studies or not but the fact is this is what they reported they found.
The studies and the article are important because they cover knowledge I haven't seen here on BYC.
For example, it is generally assumed that all feed enters the crop before being passed to the gizzard.
This is important because if one is trying to find out what a ranging bird has eaten by examining the crop one is likely to be incorrect because some feed may have been sent directly to the proventriculus.
We tend to assume that digestion happens in one direction but this isn't correct, the gizzard returns feed to the proventriculus.
The fact that the proventriculus is narrow at its start and flexible further along is also important. For example, something I've had direct experience of what seems to be a crop disorder may well be something stuck in the narrow part of the proventriculus.

(Leaving dry food accessible at all time has not had any impact that I can tell on the fact that I have two hens turning broody far too often, two that turn broody once or twice a year, and 11 that have not shown signs of turning broody, eight of which still could as they are less than a year.).

Not sure what this has got to do with the article or the studies.

 

[Shadrach]

While I am more than happy to discuss the article and the topics it raises it would be helpfull if people read the studies and the article carefully.
I mention in the article what I found with the chickens I've cared for and neither of the two extreme feeding states seemed to apply.

There are some things that are just not worth trying to argue with. Given a limited crop capacity there is only so much feed one can get in it. What happens once the chicken has ingested the feed is largely irrelevant to this point. If one adds 50% water to the feed and that feed goes to the crop then there is 50% less feed in a full crop. I provide a picture of mash so people could make a comparison with what they feed as a mash and have an idea of the reduction in nutrition per crop fill. If their mash looks wetter then there is less tah 50% feed content etc.
For a keeper who keeps confined birds this is important information because what they get fed by their keeper is the only nutrition the birds get and if the keeper is not aware of the above point then they may well be providing less nutrition than the bird requires depending on how often the opportunity to fill the crop is available.

 

[ManueB]

I agree and said as much in the article.
In the studies relevant to the two feeding states the birds were confined.

Indeed. My point was that this was true even for birds who range on a limited space ; duration of ranging is more important for establishing a routine I think.

One can either believe the studies or not but the fact is this is what they reported they found.
The studies and the article are important because they cover knowledge I haven't seen here on BYC.

Totally agree.

Not sure what this has got to do with the article or the studies.

It was a reply to @HiEverybirdy who raised that question.

 

[Perris]

the purging of gizzard stones ... is occasional. I'll try to remember to get a photo of them next time I see them.

I saw some on this morning poo pick:

 

[Perris]

On the topic of “nutrient dilution”.

The term 'dilution' is common practice when referring to water, but it is not used just to refer to adding water to feed on various threads on BYC as well as in the article in question.

Specifically, the “Free ranging and ranging chickens” sections opens with “How important feed dilution is for ranging chickens is complicated.” What is meant by ‘feed dilution’ here? It appears to be being applied to forage supposedly diluting the nutrition to be obtained from a so-called complete feed.

Forage is specifically identified as the source of ‘dilution’ in the section called “Discussion” (see paragraph 2 especially).

Chickens could not digest any amount of dried feed without water, either consumed in advance so the bird has the hydration in body already to add in the crop or elsewhere, or very shortly after eating dry feed. So if given dry feed, the bird’s consumption of water takes place as a separate action. Wet feed allows the consumption of food and water simultaneously in one action. To compare like with like, you have to include the water consumption as well as the feed, whether fed separately or together. The water of course goes into the same digestive system as the feed, so variably into the crop, or straight to the proventriculus.

Then there’s the overlooked issue of water as a nutrient in itself. Indeed, Storey’s Guide to Raising Chickens 4th ed 2017:91 says “The most important ingredient in your chickens’ diet is water.” I can elaborate if anyone wants. It isn’t just 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen and no calories. It has a fundamental role to play in the digestion of the solids consumed – allowing hydrolysis for example – and changing the chemistry of the thing ‘diluted’ – the taste of the whiskey to which you add it, for example.

 

[Shadrach]

Specifically, the “Free ranging and ranging chickens” sections opens with “How important feed dilution is for ranging chickens is complicated.” What is meant by ‘feed dilution’ here? It appears to be being applied to forage supposedly diluting the nutrition to be obtained from a so-called complete feed.

I'll have a look at exactly what I've written later but that is not what I meant to imply. Forage as we have both argued may supply a higher level of nutriants than commercial feed.
The only dilution I've meant to cover is the addition of water.

Chickens could not digest any amount of dried feed without water, either consumed in advance so the bird has the hydration in body already to add in the crop or elsewhere, or very shortly after eating dry feed. So if given dry feed, the bird’s consumption of water takes place as a separate action. Wet feed allows the consumption of food and water simultaneously in one action. To compare like with like, you have to include the water consumption as well as the feed, whether fed separately or together. The water of course goes into the same digestive system as the feed, so variably into the crop, or straight to the proventriculus.

Just not relevant to the simple math. A container of limited capacity (crop) can only take in a certain weight of feed. By adding water before the chicken ingests the feed reduces the nutrition in that weight of feed by the weight of the amount of water added. It's the same as giving half the weight of feed in the 50/50 mix I mention.

Then there’s the overlooked issue of water as a nutrient in itself. Indeed, Storey’s Guide to Raising Chickens 4th ed 2017:91 says “The most important ingredient in your chickens’ diet is water.” I can elaborate if anyone wants. It isn’t just 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen and no calories. It has a fundamental role to play in the digestion of the solids consumed – allowing hydrolysis for example – and changing the chemistry of the thing ‘diluted’ – the taste of the whiskey to which you add it, for example.

Completely agree but not relevant to the basic math. It's the link between crop capacity and feed intake that seems to be causing some issues.

There is what goes on outside of the chicken and what goes on in the digestive process. The addition of water to the feed is outside of the chickens digestive system. Whether it is beneficial to the digestion to add water before the feed is given to the chicken or let the chicken drink what it requires is a different topic.