Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[Perris]

I think we're talking at cross purposes.
Edited to add. remember the point in the work refered to in your note 4 reference; the crop contents are rapidly hydrated to 40%. That 40% has a volume, takes crop capacity.

 

[RoyalChick]

Not to make the water discussion more confusing than it already is, in many species water passes through the digestive system at a different rate than other items.
Peristalsis will squeeze some water out of mash.
The crop opening is slightly up from the base which mechanically would allow solids to sediment down and water will flow out.
I don’t know where along the tract chickens are able to absorb water - I know that is a big function of the caeca and large intestine, but I don’t know if any happens further upstream too.
My point is that the arithmetic on diluting food with water is unlikely to be straightforward because the water will not fill the crop to quite the same degree or for the same amount of time.

 

[Shadrach]

I think we're talking at cross purposes.
Edited to add. remember the point in the work refered to in your note 4 reference; the crop contents are rapidly hydrated to 40%. That 40% has a volume, takes crop capacity.

What happens then if the feed is already hydrated by 50% or more before the chicken ingests the feed?

Do you agree with this?

A container of limited capacity (crop) can only take in a certain weight of feed. By adding water before the chicken ingests the feed reduces the nutrition in that weight of feed by the weight of the amount of water added. It's the same as giving half the weight of feed in the 50/50 mix I mention.

 

[Shadrach]

Not to make the water discussion more confusing than it already is, in many species water passes through the digestive system at a different rate than other items.
Peristalsis will squeeze some water out of mash.
The crop opening is slightly up from the base which mechanically would allow solids to sediment down and water will flow out.
I don’t know where along the tract chickens are able to absorb water - I know that is a big function of the caeca and large intestine, but I don’t know if any happens further upstream too.
My point is that the arithmetic on diluting food with water is unlikely to be straightforward because the water will not fill the crop to quite the same degree or for the same amount of time.

Indeed. what happens to water, be it supplied in the feed, or drunk by the chicken is something I couldn't find any reasearch on.
It is possible that once the chickens crop is full, any water ingested flows straight to the proventriculus and on to the gizzard.
When one attempts to flush a chickens digestive system with water the aim is to flush the contents through the system. This will also flush the gizzard and possibly partially digested feed out of the system before the full amount of nutrients are extracted.
Does the chicken drink the same amount whether the feed is hydrated before ingestion or not? If it does then it seems possible that the system is trying to cope with too much water. It's not just the volume of water, it's what happens to the PH values in the system.

 

[Shadrach]

Day off yesterday. I'm off to the chickens now.

 

[Molpet]

Does the chicken drink the same amount whether the feed is hydrated before ingestion or not?

I feed fermented feed. I use 10 gallons of water to make it. At the bottom 1/5 of the 5 gallon buckets is a liquid for next batch . In the winter they drank less than a gallon between 100 birds. I did see turkeys picking at frost though. If snow some just ate the snow. The ones laying are the chickens that take a drink.
In the hottest part of summer they drink almost 5 gallons of water with the FF. They did not drink after eating.
When they had dry feed they drank immediately after eating and during the day they empty the waterers and were looking for more. At least 12 gallons of water.

I just harvested a jake yesterday and he was full of fat. All the birds I have harvested have been fatter than I would think healthy. Especially the meat mutts cockerels.

 

[Perris]

What happens then if the feed is already hydrated by 50% or more before the chicken ingests the feed?

I assume it is not further hydrated in the crop

Do you agree with this?

No

what happens to water, be it supplied in the feed, or drunk by the chicken is something I couldn't find any reasearch on

Me neither.

It is possible that once the chickens crop is full, any water ingested flows straight to the proventriculus

If you pour water onto some dry pellets/mash you will be able to judge approximately how much is absorbed as it passes; I can't as there are no pellets/mash here.

Does the chicken drink the same amount whether the feed is hydrated before ingestion or not?

no, my birds don't drink anything like the sort of figures I read for birds on dry feed. Molpet apparently finds likewise.

the arithmetic on diluting food with water is unlikely to be straightforward because the water will not fill the crop to quite the same degree or for the same amount of time

exactly. It's not simple maths.

 

[RoyalChick]

Does the chicken drink the same amount whether the feed is hydrated before ingestion or not? If it does then it seems possible that the system is trying to cope with too much water. It's not just the volume of water, it's what happens to the PH values in the system.

no, my birds don't drink anything like the sort of figures I read for birds on dry feed. Molpet apparently finds likewise.

The physiological principle behind the Milieu Intérieur thinking put forward in the 19the Century, would tell us that the body will adjust their intake to the water level in the food.
So on average, I would expect chickens eating a lot of wet food (mash, live frogs, worms, ripe fruit) to drink less than chickens eating a lot of dry food (pellets, dried mealworms).
I think this is what @Perris has observed.
But it is a biological, not an engineering, process so it will have loose tolerances and probably not operate meal to meal.
I also have no idea how much is anticipatory or reactive.
Chickens can always get rid of excess moisture through diarrhea, but the primacy of self preservation (another physiological 'rule') would suggest that while a body might take in more water in anticipation of needing it when facing a dry meal, it is unlikely that the body would expel water until it absolutely has to (i.e. after gorging on ripe watermelon).
Basically, the body doesn't take the risk of dehydration but knows it can handle excess water if that is what occurs.
And yes, I know there are documented cases of death from water intoxication. Biology isn't perfect!

 

[RoyalChick]

Sorry for all the physiology posting. It is (one of) my things.
Tax for boring everyone. Piglet and Babs sampling wild water after filling their crops with high water containing food (earthworms and new grass shoots I think).

 

[MrsNorthie]

I am prone to think this notion of free feeding may not work the same in confinement as it does when birds range.

Putting aside the facts that Shad's article was talking about the digestion process variations, ie; the peristaltic process, and using the crop fullness to determine how much a chicken has eaten due to some foods being sent directly to the proventriculus, etc. I wonder if there are some breed variations when in comes to the effect of free feeding and controlled feeding in confinement or limited ranging?

I read a lot of, admittedly not scientific, articles about Buff Orpintons. Such as this one https://www.knowyourchickens.com/buff-orpington-chicken/ as an example. Almost all suggest that Buffs have a tendency toward obesity.

"Just watch out for obesity! While Buff Orpingtons grow out quickly, maturing faster than many other meat breeds, they like to eat. Providing unrestricted access to feed is generally a good idea, but with the Orpington chicken, you need to be careful. These birds will park themselves at the feeder and munch on grain all day!"

The breed was bred to be dual purpose, so tend to be larger than the typical laying breed. I manage their meals and encourage foraging which promotes physical activity, which this time of year means supplementing with scattered grains and 'treats' to keep them at a healthy weight. I don't think their little legs would handle the landing as they fly off the roosts and out the coop door every morning, if they were over-weight. Foraging

Of course the also say:

"This chicken is absolutely lovely to behold. It moves in a gentle gliding motion, offering a sophisticated and classy air to your entire chicken run."

Which just made me laugh until I couldn't breath and then laugh some more. It is kind of true, most times through out the day, they are graceful and elegant, but let them sense that I or the egg thief are coming out, and they are like a wild flapping herd of rampaging buffalo. LOL

This, "It will even let you know when it’s ready for some loving, emitting soft little cries to encourage you to pick it up!" I have found to be totally true. I have not been seeking to pick them up and over-handle them, but the minute I sit down in the run, I find one or two or 36 all wanting to jump up in my lap for a cuddle, even if it is for just a few minutes, some will curl up and start napping and would stay there all day, if I could sit there all day. (Blue is the only one that is not cuddly, but he has the safety and security of the entire tribe resting on his shoulders, but he doesn't mind a little scratch or comb massage at the end of a long day.).