Show off your Delawares! *PIC HEAVY*

[speckledhen]

I take it that it is not a cross of Delaware and Orp or you would not have that type on it, nor that feathering, nor that white skin. And since "Delaware" is not a type, that is incorrect from that standpoint. I'm sure the person would be snotty as heck if challenged about his choice of names-they usually are.

If you did cross a Delaware and an Orp, you'd definitely not have birds like that, with that type or clean white skin color. The feathering is also completely different on an Orp and a Delaware. So, there is no way the word "Delaware" belongs on those birds, IMO. It reminds me of people who think any white bird with dark color in the hackles and tail is a Delaware, though it can be a Lakenvelder or Brahma or Columbian Rock, forget all other visual cues. Details, details....

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Agreed. The word Delaware as a color descriptor in a different breed is confounding.

Especially as I'm not yet 100% convinced getting the coloring on the Delaware right (according to the description of the breed in the APA Standard of Perfection) is even possible anyway -- especially getting properly colored males and females out of the same breeding -- it seems to be a contrary color pattern.

Though I'm pretty far from worrying too much about perfecting the coloring at this point anyway, I'm still working on body shape ... then there will be a few other priorities before getting the barred hackles and tails, etc.

This is one of the cockerels I've selected to work with next year. He is getting lighter in the fluffy areas as time passes since this photo was taken, but I'm not sure he'll produce pullets with white-rimmed black tails, so I've also got a cock and a cockerel to work with that have too much black in their tails. What I like about this guy is he is nothing but interesting curves in every direction so he is compact and much bigger than he appears to be at a glance. After that I could get picky about various details, particularly regarding color.




Those "White Delaware Orpingtons" don't have the "Delaware coloring" right either.

 

[speckledhen]

Agreed. The word Delaware as a color descriptor in a different breed is confounding.

Especially as I'm not yet 100% convinced getting the coloring on the Delaware right (according to the description of the breed in the APA Standard of Perfection) is even possible anyway -- especially getting properly colored males and females out of the same breeding -- it seems to be a contrary color pattern.

Though I'm pretty far from worrying too much about perfecting the coloring at this point anyway, I'm still working on body shape ... then there will be a few other priorities before getting the barred hackles and tails, etc.

This is one of the cockerels I've selected to work with next year. He is getting lighter in the fluffy areas as time passes since this photo was taken, but I'm not sure he'll produce pullets with white-rimmed black tails, so I've also got a cock and a cockerel to work with that have too much black in their tails. What I like about this guy is he is nothing but interesting curves in every direction so he is compact and much bigger than he appears to be at a glance. After that I could get picky about various details, particularly regarding color.




Those "White Delaware Orpingtons" don't have the "Delaware coloring" right either.

No, they certainly do not.

Your guy is looking pretty good, form wise, though! He sure has mass and a nice tail angle and wing carriage. Have you weighed him? Some of those of Kathy's veer to the way too heavy, even if the shapes are correct. I do like your guy.

It's been interesting how Isaac has changed. He was right on the money as a cockerel with wing carriage, tail angle and his shape as a cockerel, though his barring was always darker than most like. He made nicely colored pullets with good tail black. As he's gotten to be an old man, every time he molts, he gets more white in his tail like a human becoming gray, but hey, age has its privileges, right? He is an old guy and he's beginning to look the part. My friend in South Carolina just lost one of his sons who was going on 5 years old to a massive stroke. Isaac has outlived so many of his own sons now.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

No, they certainly do not.

Your guy is looking pretty good, form wise, though! He sure has mass and a nice tail angle and wing carriage. Have you weighed him? Some of those of Kathy's veer to the way too heavy, even if the shapes are correct. I do like your guy.

It's been interesting how Isaac has changed. He was right on the money as a cockerel with wing carriage, tail angle and his shape as a cockerel, though his barring was always darker than most like. He made nicely colored pullets with good tail black. As he's gotten to be an old man, every time he molts, he gets more white in his tail like a human becoming gray, but hey, age has its privileges, right? He is an old guy and he's beginning to look the part. My friend in South Carolina just lost one of his sons who was going on 5 years old to a massive stroke. Isaac has outlived so many of his own sons now.

I'd like to see longevity in this breed, so Mr Isaac is inspiring.

My birds are not overly large at all. PapaDell is within the tolerance for weight for this breed (looks small, weighs okay on the scale, which speaks well to his compact mass), and though the older cockerels look bigger than Papa, the older ones I've weighed were okay for cockerel weights. Our pullets are on the small side, so a little extra weight/size in the males wouldn't bother me too much at this point.

Here is PapaDel, photo from a while back ... enough things to work on to keep me busy, but I really like him and feel I got lucky to get to work with him. He also has a lot of character, and was super with the chicks.




I have been thinking about the trend I've heard about in show circles to go for massive birds. Luckily my breeding partner is a perfectionist and would prefer to have them match the description in the standard. Not sure how we attract attention to the breed if the show judges dismiss properly-sized birds for oversized birds and we're all working to get them properly proportioned ... presuming anyone is even showing Delawares. I really don't feel like showing.

My cockerels seem to flesh out between 21 and 31 weeks, which is slow. But they go from "long/lumpy/awkward" to "round/smooth/solid" in those 10 weeks. Part of that is because their tail angles improve drastically in that time. And they lose some of the extra black/gray (as I wrote above).

I still haven't processed one, so don't know how they dress out. Or taste. I had one set aside for Christmas Dinner, but nobody here was in the right mood to deal with processing. It's our super busy season here on the farm. We had ham. Yum! That doesn't stop us from grumbling about the feed bill.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Here are a couple photos of a lumpy-looking younger cockerel from a couple weeks ago. He is SO much rounder and smoother today he almost doesn't look like the same bird. He might be the roundest bird here with the widest stance ... and his tail is much higher, making his back look shorter (the tail possibly verges on "squirrely" except it is also super wide). I think he has the most distinct tail and hackle barring of the cockerels with the whitest body/fluff. I'll try to get some photos of him today. The problem is that it is very sunny today, and taking iPhone photos of white birds in the sunlight makes for burned-out images so it's hard to really judge color.

 

[speckledhen]

Quote: I agree about the judging. Who holds the judges to the standard, eh? The massive birds are so awe-inspiring that they seem to dismiss the fact that they have overshot the standard weights. I do not show and never intend to, either. I don't think many Delawares are at shows. A breeder once PM'd me and told me that my group of Delawares were superior to any he saw at an APA show he attended. Now, I know the faults mine had, great points, too, of course, but certainly still a work in progress, and yet, he felt they were better than the ones being shown. I'd hate to have seen those for myself. It would have been depressing, I think.

I'm not sure the Delawares will ever make it back. It's really disheartening when I can't tell someone who asks me who has some great Delawares that I know anyone I would recommend. I am, admittedly, out of the loop of late, but not being able to think of even one off the top of my head after all these years of trying to drum up interest in the breed here on BYC? Wish it was different. Unfortunately, Janet Holtman had to halt her breeding program, which was making great strides, when she moved closer to her work a few years ago. I'd like to have seen where she would be today if she had continued.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I agree about the judging. Who holds the judges to the standard, eh? The massive birds are so awe-inspiring that they seem to dismiss the fact that they have overshot the standard weights. I do not show and never intend to, either. I don't think many Delawares are at shows. A breeder once PM'd me and told me that my group of Delawares were superior to any he saw at an APA show he attended. Now, I know the faults mine had, great points, too, of course, but certainly still a work in progress, and yet, he felt they were better than the ones being shown. I'd hate to have seen those for myself. It would have been depressing, I think.

I'm not sure the Delawares will ever make it back. It's really disheartening when I can't tell someone who asks me who has some great Delawares that I know anyone I would recommend. I am, admittedly, out of the loop of late, but not being able to think of even one off the top of my head after all these years of trying to drum up interest in the breed here on BYC? Wish it was different. Unfortunately, Janet Holtman had to halt her breeding program, which was making great strides, when she moved closer to her work a few years ago. I'd like to have seen where she would be today if she had continued.

I stumbled across the Facebook page for the local poultry association lately. There was a recommendation to visit another FB page to see really great quality birds. The breeder lives quite near to me (working on some stunning and round breeds that really caught my eye). So I sent him some photos of my cockerels just to say "howdy neighbor." He said some encouraging things about the cockerels, which was very kind of him. He definitely said to put type before color, as does everyone. He even offered to help me learn, which is a super resource to have ... he is both a breeder and a judge. I will have to pick his brain about the question of size.

I just hope I can continue to work with these and see if I can help bring them back. Threads here showed lots of interest in Delawares a few years ago ... enough to inspire Kathyinmo to start a project ... but I'm not sure there are even very many of us still working with the birds she sent out and about. One of the other breeders working with this line has some nice looking pullets from the F5s of this line, another has some gorgeous F4 hens. I think my cockerels look better than my pullets, and my hens changed color when they molted

. My breeding partner and I are pooling resources ... I got my trio of F4s from her, and we plan to trade back and forth as seems reasonable to make progress.

We shall see what happens next year.

I sure have a lot to learn!

 

[finnfur]

I agree about the judging. Who holds the judges to the standard, eh? The massive birds are so awe-inspiring that they seem to dismiss the fact that they have overshot the standard weights. I do not show and never intend to, either. I don't think many Delawares are at shows. A breeder once PM'd me and told me that my group of Delawares were superior to any he saw at an APA show he attended. Now, I know the faults mine had, great points, too, of course, but certainly still a work in progress, and yet, he felt they were better than the ones being shown. I'd hate to have seen those for myself. It would have been depressing, I think.

I'm not sure the Delawares will ever make it back. It's really disheartening when I can't tell someone who asks me who has some great Delawares that I know anyone I would recommend. I am, admittedly, out of the loop of late, but not being able to think of even one off the top of my head after all these years of trying to drum up interest in the breed here on BYC? Wish it was different. Unfortunately, Janet Holtman had to halt her breeding program, which was making great strides, when she moved closer to her work a few years ago. I'd like to have seen where she would be today if she had continued.

Well you got one person interested and at that time yours was "the line" - but most I knew of originated in some form from you or who you acquired from - There were a couple others a lady
in FL, Janet Holtman and a couple others including Kathys old line - but think the new recreated line has lots of potential and we know what they started with.
And you are right it will only keep going with a few diehards because its a difficult breed to keep to SOP and the color is such you almost need to run two lines. One Male and one Female.

 

[speckledhen]

Well you got one person interested and at that time yours was "the line" - but most I knew of originated in some form from you or who you acquired from - There were a couple others a lady
in FL, Janet Holtman and a couple others including Kathys old line - but think the new recreated line has lots of potential and we know what they started with.
And you are right it will only keep going with a few diehards because its a difficult breed to keep to SOP and the color is such you almost need to run two lines. One Male and one Female.

Yes, it's a very challenging breed to get right in both sexes because of the color difference of the two. I just didn't have it in me to set up two lines, though I was aware that it was truly the best way to do this breed from my consultations with Janet Holtman years ago.

I almost didn't have Delawares myself, though. You probably remember how I started, with chicks I hatched out of a McMurray pair owned by my friend, Kate (helmstead on BYC). Kate's hatchery Delaware pair turned aggressive at around a year old and she had to cull them both. The chicks out of them were aggressive and flighty and I did not like them at all, sold them before they were 3 months old.

Later on, Janet Holtman engaged me on another forum and asked me to do a fertility test hatch for her for an up and coming cockerel she had, her secret mission to change my mind about the breed. She promised me they would be completely different from the others I started with and they were. Her stock was even more improved by the time I got more eggs from her and hatched Isaac. So, if she had not done that, I would not have been the advocate for the breed that I was. I'm happy that folks like you took up the torch and went forward with saving the breed and improving it.

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

Questions

1) Can Delaware really be a breed if it requires two separate lines to get properly colored males and females?

2) Is it possible to have properly colored males & females from one line?

3) If the honest answer is "no" to both questions above, then does the SOP need to be changed by either eliminated th Delaware enitrely, or by adjusting the description of either or both sexes of Delawares to something that can be produced from one line of birds?

4) How do we find the answers to these questions?