Silkies Of A Different Color

[RioLindoAz]

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Do your birds carry the CHOC gene?

I would be very surprised if they did. My first chocolate silkies came from a self-blue splash cock X white hen. They hatched two chocolate-coloured boys and one chocolate-coloured girl. If choc caused the colouring, it would mean that both parents had to carry it. Since the parents came from different breeders, and choc was pretty rare and uncommon, and not known in the US that long ago, the chances of them being choc seem pretty astronomical. Add to that my inability to reliably get chocolate coloured offspring from them, when two visually choc birds should produce all choc offspring. I deliberately bred chocolate (Dun gene) polish into them (as explained earlier in this thread), and the offspring colouring seems to follow the correct percentages for Dun.

People keep referring to their DUN birds as Chocolate, which confuses me. DUN and CHOC are two completely different genes, and only CHOC carrying birds should be referred to as Chocolates.

Dun acts like blue,

&

* Chocolate Male X Chocolate Female = 100% Chocolate

* Black Male X Chocolate Female = 50% Black Males carrying Chocolate, 50% Black Females

* Chocolate Male X Black Female = 50% Black Males carrying Chocolate, 50% Chocolate Females

* Black Male carrying Chocolate X Chocolate Female = 25% Chocolate Males, 25% Black Males carrying Chocolate, 25% Chocolate Females, 25% Black Females

* Black Male carrying Chocolate X Black Female = 25% Black Males carrying Chocolate, 25% Black Males, 25% Chocolate Females, 25% Black Females

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Read the APA's Standard of Perfection and the ABA's Bantam Standard. These breed standards NAME the varieties, and pretty much could care less about the genetic makeup of the birds. When they change the name of the chocolate variety to dun, then I will happily start calling my birds "dun." I think my posts have made it pretty clear that my chocolate birds are dun-based. Likewise, Old English, Polish and other breeds that are available in chocolate are dun-based, but their variety is chocolate, khaki or fawn silver duckwing.

If we were in a country where choc was more common, or that named dun-based birds with a different variety name than choc-based ones, your point would be reasonable.

 

[averytds]

Any thoughts on why your chocolates appear so dark tipped? Is it because of the Silkie feathering as opposed to hard feathers and/or lighting?


Any thoughts on why your original chocolates don't reliably produce Khakis? Is there another gene that gives a similar brown or counteracts dun?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

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Partly lighting, partly because I believe that chocolate colouring is like blue colouring: there is a range of shades, depending on melanizers. Other photos and information that I have seen of chocolates & khakis appear to uphold that hypothesis. I *think* that I have read that the colour produced by choc is more reliable in shade. I won't go to bat on that, but I think I have seen something like that stated somewhere. No idea whether silkie feathering plays a role, although it could.

One of my theories on my original chocolate birds has to do with melanizers. The name for the allele e^b, which is carried by most silkies, is sometimes called partridge, and is sometimes called "brown" (the source of the "b"). I do not know how e^b works at a cellular level, but I wonder if if some way the melanin is altered to a brown hue. None of the original birds were leaky on their hackles, and the one who is still living (elderly as he is) still has pretty dark hackles. Maybe very slight leakage, but at 9 years, that is not surprising. He was alwasy the lightest shade of the three originals. All I know is that I was never able to lighten their colour until I added the dun gene.

FWIW, they are not the source of my partridge birds.

 

[averytds]

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Okay that makes sense. I'm familiar with the variation in blues.

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Interesting. So the original chocolates possibly didn't have dun at all. The more I play around with the color calculator the more I understand about test mating to try and figure things out. Sometimes the results are so surprising. Where's the OTC poultry genetics test when you need it.

TY so much for your answers. I'll quit hogging the thread now.

GL with your project. I look forward to seeing more Khaki Silkies in the future.

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

I do not KNOW that they were not dun; just that replicating their colour was not very predictable. I was new to breeding at that time, so that could have also been part of the problem. Someone more experienced and knowledgeable might have been able to make more headway. But probably would not have let the splash breed the white to begin with.

 

[BetsyOK]

About a year ago, I had a beautiful showgirl I called chocolate (hadn't heard the term in silkie color; she looked like milk chocolate candy), until our dog got in the pen. She was a very even, solid color. She was from my partridges. I still have her mother, who is almost the same color. I'm wondering, then if chocolate CAN come from partridge?

 

[averytds]

I know what you mean. I'm trying my best to not recommend anything that will mess up where the kids are now. I know more experienced breeders would cringe at letting my porcelains hatch anything with DD's white roo. I figure as long as the offspring go to the mixed flock vs back into her Silkies, there won't be a problem. Along with the color calculator I think it'll be a good lesson about test breeding and genetics for the kids.

Hmmm, Betsy. Any idea who the father was other than a partridge or thoughts about producing more? The showgirls are all silkie feathered right? So she was a bit darker than the khakis, but lighter than the chocolates with even coloring on silkie feathers?


We don't have any partridge. Does it have color ranges like the blues or sometimes a wash out of color like some of the blues and splashes?

 

[BetsyOK]

Mostly I have blue partridges from one of the really good breeders, and not many of them. That's about right for the color description. Was really upset when she got killed as she was so pretty. Her Mom is a bit more reddish than she was, but also a fairly solid color. I have no idea how she got that coloring.

My showgirls are all nice ones at least 12 generations down. Yes, lovely silkie feathering.

 

[averytds]

Ah, thanks Betsy. I was pretty sure they did, but I'm not as familiar with the showgirls. I just try to keep up as best as I can with the breeds the kids are working with, especially since I'm the buyer.

Can't wait to see you and your birds at POOPs this Spring.