Silver Lace Project Modern Game Bantam - Why Don't Gold Laced MGBs Exist?

[ChaddiX]

Partridge makes "salt and pepper" out of the laced pattern. The best way I can describe it is that you wind up with neither partridge nor fully laced but something in between that is not aesthetically eye pleasing. I wound up with this combination where partridge came from brown leghorns and laced from Silver Laced Wyandotte. It is not hard to breed out, but why add to the difficulty in a breeding plan.

Columbian, Melanotic, and Pattern genes are required to get lacing and it only shows up properly on a feather that has full vanes.

Pic of an F1 hen Silver Laced Wyandotte X Blue Egg Laying Brown Leghorn
http://selectedplants.com/miscan/slw.bebr.hen.jpg

And an F1 rooster http://selectedplants.com/miscan/slw.bebr.rooster.jpg

 

[ChaddiX]

Here's the F1 cross. Gonna do some back crossing this year to my larger silkie hens.
View attachment 2513966View attachment 2513967View attachment 2513968

Yup, that's a big bird! Are you using show quality breeding stock? Lacking leg feathers, muffs, and beard. That flat, sickle-tail is the hardest gene for me to get rid of. Wattles still show up in F1, but the comb looks much better (thank goodness single comb is recessive). Also, what colour/patterns are you working with on both breeds? (splash can ruin the crisp lining on silver and black lacing)
Using show quality birds ensures you know what you're working with (no unwanted nor hidden genes). I recommended using show quality Cochins as I think you'll find them just as huge as a Brahma. Breeding poor quality is just as hard work, as breeding show quality... and will cost you more at the end in time and money to fix. I learned this the hard way.

This is the website I'm referencing for my technique. This seems to be most efficient. But I still don't know where the three genes (pattern, restrictor and columbian) for silver lacing occur in Silkies/sizzles. At least we know columbian gene exists in the Light and Dark Brahma. Thank you for sharing! Keep up the good work! https://www.coachhousecochins.com/non-standard-colours-explained.html

 

[ChaddiX]

Where do those [pattern, restrictor and columbian] genes reside within sizzles' (smooth, normal-feather Silkies) colours or Modern Game Bantam colours/patterns? sizzles have solid colours, splash, partridge, and cuckoo. Which colours in MGBs should be used to produce Silver lace? I would use sizzles/Silkies for form and Cochins to introduce silver lace. I would use MGBs for form and Seabrights to introduce silver lace. What colour Silkies do I work with? What colour/pattern of MGBs do I work with? Thank you so much for your insight.

I'm using the following website as the technique to introduce silver lacing to a breed that does not have a silver laced bird. https://www.coachhousecochins.com/non-standard-colours-explained.html

 

[MysteryChicken]

Yup, that's a big bird! Are you using show quality breeding stock? Lacking leg feathers, muffs, and beard. That flat, sickle-tail is the hardest gene for me to get rid of. Wattles still show up in F1, but the comb looks much better (thank goodness single comb is recessive). Also, what colour/patterns are you working with on both breeds? (splash can ruin the crisp lining on silver and black lacing)
Using show quality birds ensures you know what you're working with (no unwanted nor hidden genes). I recommended using show quality Cochins as I think you'll find them just as huge as a Brahma. Breeding poor quality is just as hard work, as breeding show quality... and will cost you more at the end in time and money to fix. I learned this the hard way.

This is the website I'm referencing for my technique. This seems to be most efficient. But I still don't know where the three genes (pattern, restrictor and columbian) for silver lacing occur in Silkies/sizzles. At least we know columbian gene exists in the Light and Dark Brahma. Thank you for sharing! Keep up the good work! https://www.coachhousecochins.com/non-standard-colours-explained.html

I have Show Quality Bantam Silkies that are Cochin based, but they'll be introducing unwanted bantam genes to my Giants. So I'm trying to avoid the Small size.

 

[ChaddiX]

I'm not quite sure which of those four birds you are crossing with which other ones, but I think you might have the sexlinks backwards.

Gold father x silver mother = gold daughters and silver sons.
And there is no way to breed those offspring that will give sexlinks in the next generation.

Silver father x gold mother = silver daughters and silver sons (i.e. you cannot sex them by color.)

In either case, the sons look silver but carry the gold gene, while the daughters have either silver or gold but not both (because the females have only one Z chromosome, and that's where the gold or silver gene is located.)

Thanks for the clarification.
What color/patterns of EXISTING Modern Game Bantams should I use?

1st trio) Silver Sebright Male (color/pattern introduced) X MGB Females (form) = F1 Male Having MGB form carrying [1, 2, or 3] silver lace pattern genes.

2nd trio) MGB Male X silver sebright females = F1 Females (ideal form & color) x F1 Males (of ideal form & color) = F2 Choose the best specimens for form and color pattern. REPEAT until standard of perfection is met with form and NEW introduced color/pattern. This technique is reference below: https://www.coachhousecochins.com/non-standard-colours-explained.html
Thank you for your insight. Very helpful.

 

[ChaddiX]

I have Show Quality Bantam Silkies that are Cochin based, but they'll be introducing unwanted bantam genes to my Giants. So I'm trying to avoid the Small size.

This sizzle is a Smooth Sizzle/Silkie. It has no wattles & almost non existant walnut comb. The tail still needs some work, but it's much larger than most bantam silkies. Females tend to dictate form, but not necessarily size. I've had my female sizzles x Male bearded Polish = F1 Females were same size as polish father.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to see wattles or combs on my birds -LoL

If I have space, I'd like to get my Silkie and Sizzles on stilts, like they've done with the Cochin... German Langshans with Silkie heads ;-)

 

[NatJ]

Thanks for the clarification.
What color/patterns of EXISTING Modern Game Bantams should I use?

1st trio) Silver Sebright Male (color/pattern introduced) X MGB Females (form) = F1 Male Having MGB form carrying [1, 2, or 3] silver lace pattern genes.

2nd trio) MGB Male X silver sebright females = F1 Females (ideal form & color) x F1 Males (of ideal form & color) = F2 Choose the best specimens for form and color pattern. REPEAT until standard of perfection is met with form and NEW introduced color/pattern. This technique is reference below: https://www.coachhousecochins.com/non-standard-colours-explained.html
Thank you for your insight. Very helpful.

I can't find a list of what colors exist in Modern Game Bantams, so I don't know what's available.

If Birchen exists, it would probably be a good choice. If Blue Birchen is available, it should be equally good.

If you are just creating SILVER laced birds, I would suggest only using silver birds, and avoiding ones with gold, yellow, brown, or red. Crossing any shade of gold with silver can make it harder to get nice looking silvers in future, because there are apparently a bunch of genes involved in getting the clean white look.

Of course, if you want to also create gold laced, it might make sense to start with both colors at the same time.

I would avoid using solid white birds, because it's so hard to know what other genes they are carrying.

I would also avoid solid black because they probably have various modifying genes that extend black over as much of the bird as possible--and that would probably cause there to be too much black on the laced ones you are trying to create. Any color based on solid black would have the same problem (Blue, Splash, Lavender, Mottled, Barred, Cuckoo, etc.)

Beyond that, it would just depend on what you have access to.

 

[MysteryChicken]

This sizzle is a Smooth Sizzle/Silkie. It has no wattles & almost non existant walnut comb. The tail still needs some work, but it's much larger than most bantam silkies. Females tend to dictate form, but not necessarily size. I've had my female sizzles x Male bearded Polish = F1 Females were same size as polish father.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to see wattles or combs on my birds -LoL

If I have space, I'd like to get my Silkie and Sizzles on stilts, like they've done with the Cochin... German Langshans with Silkie heads ;-)

Large Fowl silkies are supposed to be beardless, so I'm going to pass that on to my Giant Silkies. The Satin is cute.

I do have a Project Giant Silkie thread if you wanna continue the conversation there so it doesn't interfere with yours?

 

[ChaddiX]

I can't find a list of what colors exist in Modern Game Bantams, so I don't know what's available.

If Birchen exists, it would probably be a good choice. If Blue Birchen is available, it should be equally good.

If you are just creating SILVER laced birds, I would suggest only using silver birds, and avoiding ones with gold, yellow, brown, or red. Crossing any shade of gold with silver can make it harder to get nice looking silvers in future, because there are apparently a bunch of genes involved in getting the clean white look.

Of course, if you want to also create gold laced, it might make sense to start with both colors at the same time.

I would avoid using solid white birds, because it's so hard to know what other genes they are carrying.

I would also avoid solid black because they probably have various modifying genes that extend black over as much of the bird as possible--and that would probably cause there to be too much black on the laced ones you are trying to create. Any color based on solid black would have the same problem (Blue, Splash, Lavender, Mottled, Barred, Cuckoo, etc.)

Thank you, that's very useful information. I don't think Lavender is black, but rather self-blue that breeds true, but I understand what you mean by "solid" color. Below is the chart I reference to keep my colors straight in my head.
I thought using partridge Silkies with Silver lace cochins would facilitate lacing, but I guess it would just make for a leaky, messy silver lace.
MGBs come in all colours of blacks, all the way down to speckled and wheaten recs., birchen probably being the most prevalent. Birchin is basically duck-wing pattern or bb red pattern, correct?
Soooooo, if Birchin is what we're using for silver lace, can I use the corresponding colors of Birchen/duckwing-pattern to create the other lace colours? BB reds to make Golden lace (Black lace, gold), Red Pyles to create buff lace (white lace, buff)?

 

[NatJ]

I don't think Lavender is black, but rather self-blue that breeds true, but I understand what you mean by "solid" color.

Genetically, a Lavender is a black bird, with the black changed to a gray shade by the lavender gene. It's the black-all-over part that I think you want to avoid, even if the "black" is then changed to blue, or lavender, or chocolate (3 different genes).

Birchin is basically duck-wing pattern or bb red pattern, correct?

No, not quite.

That chart you've got with the "e" genes shows the difference:
Birchen has E^R while Black Breasted Red (Duckwing) has e+.

The various e genes affect the down color of the chicks, and also affect how the other colors are distributed on the chicken.

Duckwings have e+ the wildtype. That includes Black Breasted Reds and Silver Duckwings, and of course the Red Pyles when you have Dominant White, and various other colors.
The chicks tend to have stripes in their down, sort of like chipmunks.
The hens usually have a salmon breast, and lots of black/gray stippling on their backs.
The roosters are the actual Black Breasted color.

But Sebrights should have E^R, just like Birchens do.
Chicks with e^R usually have a lot of black on them, sometimes with various light markings.
Birchen hens have a lot of black, with silver around the base of their neck.
The roosters have a Black Breast, and look a lot like the duckwing ones, but there's a little difference in the wing coloring so they get called crowwings in some breeds.
I suggested Birchen games because of having e^R, just like the Sebrights.

Solid blacks are E (Extended Black), and so are solid blues and lavenders and mottled, barred, crele, Chocolate. And all of them have various modifiers to avoid silver leakage or gold leakage.

Soooooo, if Birchin is what we're using for silver lace, can I use the corresponding colors of Birchen/duckwing-pattern to create the other lace colours? BB reds to make Golden lace (Black lace, gold), Red Pyles to create buff lace (white lace, buff)?

If you're using Birchen for Silver Laced, then I would expect there to be a similar color in gold--it might be called Gold Birchen or Brown Red. I think Lemon Blue is also based on Gold and Birchen.

I don't know of a Birchen-based color with Dominant White, so you might have to get that gene from a Red Pyle.

I think sorting the Birchen-based colors from the Duckwing colors might be easiest if you look at the hens and the young chicks. The Birchen-based hens will be mostly black, with just a ring of silver or gold around the base of their neck. The Birchen-based chicks will be mostly black too. But the Duckwing hens will usually have a salmon-colored breast, and their backs have a mixture of black and silver or black & gold. The Duckwing-based chicks usually have stripes like little chipmunks.

Of course, gold vs. silver and black vs. blue vs. dominant white can change those a bit: a Blue Birchen hen will be mostly blue instead of mostly black, and a Duckwing-based chick with dominant white (Red Pyle) will have red & white stripes instead of the usual brown & black ones, and so forth.

I thought using partridge Silkies with Silver lace cochins would facilitate lacing, but I guess it would just make for a leaky, messy silver lace.

I think "Gray" Silkies are the silver version of Partridge, so you might be able to use them.

I don't know how bad the leakage would be, because I haven't been able to find much information that tells about that specifically. It's usually just a brief comment when a poster or author is trying to talk about something else. You might be able to get some good silvers in the F2 generation, or it might take many more generations, and I just don't know. I was simply assuming that using only silver birds would save you some effort, just like I'm assuming that using Birchen instead of Duckwing would save some effort by having more genes already "right" for what you want to create.

Have you played with the genetics calculator?
https://kippenjungle.nl/kruising.html
You can change the genes in the dropdown boxes, and see the pictures change.
(It can also be used to calculate offspring from a cross, but I rarely use that feature.)

I think a Birchen would have E^R (Birchen) and S (Silver), and everything else the wildtype form (that's the default setting, and they're all marked with + to make them easy to find again.)

A Sebright should have E^R (Birchen), Co (Columbian), Db (Blacktail or Dark Brown), Pg (Pattern Gene), Ml (Melanotic), and S (Silver.)

And Db, Pg, Ml are linked, so they should usually get inherited together, which will make your project easier. If you've already got the E^R and Silver, you'll just have Columbian and the Pg linkage group bring in, and that should create your single laced pattern.

Of course there are a bunch of modifiers that aren't in the calculator, but that are needed to make it look right, but at least you'll have the basic pattern set at that point. And if you lose Co (Columbian), you'll get Spangled birds--I don't know if you want them, but they might pop up at some point.

Um, that ended up longer than I expected