Sumatra Thread!

[farmdude]

"so a blue sumatra is a solid color? How about a splash? Where I come from those aren't solid color. Just sayin......."
Good point Stonykill. I guess I have always thought they were, I stand corrected.
"By solid I mean lacking a pattern like light brown, pencilling, real lacing, spangles, etc. I'm not super against them, I am just one of those traditionalists that will be pleasantly surprised when I see a bird that looks sumatra with other colors. The way I look at it is that if you were to just take the outline of the bird no matter the color you should be able to know the breed if that makes sense. I would love to see a good white that isnt splash based with the dark face and dark legs, the contrast would be stunning."
Again I agree 100%

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

yes now I agree with the out line deal. And when I get done with these, that's what we'll have here. I wont be happy til they look and well ARE sumatra.
I've done it with d'anver and phoenix, now working on ohiki, all the same way, so the sumatra is no different. When you do an outcross, you cant call it a what ever it's supposed to be until it looks like, breeds like, has all the proper traits and is well back to what the bird of origin was. Then and only then will I call these sumatra, and not Project birds.

But yes, when done, they will look just like the original IF you take the years of dedication it takes to properly work with them and do it right.

 

[stonykill]

Quote:
precisely , AND my birds are just that. My Sumatra's , even the "colored" ones that offend are Sumatra. They act like, breed like, look like, crow like, lay like a Sumatra. Because they are.

If someone is proud of the birds they are working on, or in my case, taking what comes NATURALLY from my birds. Yes naturally. I let my Sumatra's blacks and blues breed as they wish with themselves, and ended up with a few "colored" birds that offend. Yeah, before I got them, they may have been crossed with something else down the line always. I have NO way of knowing that. But this I DO know. I had blacks and blues ONLY, and ended up with a few after 50 or so births that were offensive and "colored". Now I have never been to Asia to see wild Sumatra's in there native habitat, or been able to see what colors that ARE NATURALLY. So I'm NOT going to judge what a bird should look like because a few Americans years ago, decided that Sumatra's should only be a certain 2 colors.

Bah......

 

[gallorojo]

http://books.google.com/books?id=XKs9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=sumatra+pheasant+game&source=bl&ots=mE3qBRRSbW&sig=DvrPlteIu3qJsQ6jdwT8lHOmYtc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JxHuTsqmC8P30gGGiOHYCQ&ved=0CE8Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=sumatra%20pheasant%20game&f=false

You all seem to be working on some good things in the Sumatras. Have any of you read this old book regarding the original Sumatras? Start reading page 98, Sumatras Pheasant Game, Sumatra Game, and Sumatra Ebon Game. Very interesting to see and read the descriptions of the old original birds. They look a lot like Gallo's project birds, which I admire. There were once many colors.

 

[stonykill]

Quote:
Thank you, this is what I've been trying to say since I joined this thread. They WERE originally many colors. Unfortunately we as Americans decided years ago that "this" bird and "this" bird were the 2 perfect examples of colors, and like every other breed of chicken, we lose the original traits. This is WHY I do what I do. Let the Sumatra's be Sumatra's and breed with each other AS THEY PLEASE. I don't cull over colors etc. And...walla! I have other colors. Naturally. And beautiful colors and birds if I do say so myself. As are everyone elses.
To say Sumatra's should ONLY be solid colors is simply inaccurate. Originally they were many colors. Just more prevelant in black and blue. And Blue isn't a solid color anyway.

 

[farmdude]

I don't think there is a right or wrong about Sumatra colors. It is simply a matter of preference. Breed for what you like. They are awesome birds in any color.The APA, The American Standard of Perfection will catch up eventually and accept more colors.

 

[stonykill]

Quote:
I doubt it will, and will let my Sumatra's prove the APA is wrong, as usual. Yes they are incredible birds in ANY color. Incredible if their face isn't "show" perfect. Incredible is the hens tail isn't "show" perfect. Incredible as they are. Game foul.

 

[stonykill]

managed to squeeze in a few more pics.

1st the blue/straw/gold I posted yesterday. He hatched from a black Broody Sumatra hen in March.

this little guy is younger. Born in June if I remember correctly. With 16 broodys this year, it gets hard to keep track. 2 of those broody's will have their hatches this coming week. Anyway here he is, about 6 months old.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

I'm not trying to start anything but what I was trying to get at is that here in the US most people breed according to the standard. If you look at other breeds way back such as the orpingtons, brahmas, cochins especially. They looked much much different than they do today because of selectively breeding and breeding towards a goal of a 'perfect' bird according to the standards. I had an old 1898/1902 standard with sumatras in it, the way they described them back then was very vague and didnt specify much other than a darker face, black plumage, and a longer tail than other farm fowl. It didnt say they need to have a horizontal tail, multiple spurs, a perfect pea comb, no wattles/earlobes, barely anything like that. Black and blue seem to be the most common colors in many breeds because they are easy to breed and perfect. The sumatras we see today are from all the breeding that enables us to differentiate them from other oriental/longtail breeds. Sure you can breed what you like but when you have a bird that more resembles a cubalaya or a shamo just please dont try to pass it off as a sumatra. We need as many people working with the breed regardless of color or size as we can get because sumatras are still rare when it comes to backyard birds.
I dont mean to offend anyone but that is just how I feel about the subject. I didnt know it would cause you to raise your hackles so much stonykill and for that I apologize.

 

[stonykill]

Quote:
insulting someones birds will offend them.

The standard is just what a few Americans deemed "perfect" Nothing more than that. AND like I said, I started with ONLY Black Sumatra's and Blue Sumatra's. The ONLY roosters on my land are Sumatra's. This is what happens when you don't play god, and let nature take it's course.

The info out there on Sumatra's is slim. But one thing is pretty clear, even in old literature. They came in many colors. Except in American, as with only a few exceptions, only blacks and "perfect" blues are cared about. Well, except for khaki and dunn, which for some odd reason is acceptable, but multiple colors aren't.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox, i have said how I feel, you how you feel.

My birds are s nature intended them. NOT genetically altered to look like something else.

I'm curious what these boys will look like when they mature. The oldest pictured is only 7 months old.