Sunflower Chickens

[Ivywoods]

This weekend I aquired a bantam black cochin rooster that I originally raised about 7 years ago. He was out of our best BBC rooster. Unfortunately, I do not have a BBC hen or pullet to put with this beautiful rooster. I'd like to raise some chicks out of him, so I am wondering if there is anyone in the nearby areas with some show quality BBC hens or pullets.

It's kind of a sentimental thing. The daddy to this rooster was my son's show chicken that won every show he was in. That rooster died a few years ago.

PM me if you have, or know of someone who has some super nice BBC females.

 

[OzawkieBantams]

I am getting bored here Now back to my real passion

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[OzawkieBantams]

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I agree and I will after this
No disrespect


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Ah, you really don't want to know how I know about the heart attacks...if you read about folks who try to keep them too long and haven't had them outgrow their legs, you'll find a lot of complaints about flipping and dying...their body outgrows their internal organs and it's a pretty violent, sudden death. I try to look away when the questions about that come up on the Meat Birds board, but they come up pretty often...

Its simple here: how is it diagnosed????? It’s as shallow as protein, really it is. Show me one real proof that someone; scientist, veterinarian or Doctor diagnosed a heart attack in a chicken. I don’t doubt that a chicken can have a heart attack!!! I do agree that their bodies out grow their organs, but come on. Your observations and second hand (what do they call it in court) "hearsay!" Show me the proof that this or that bird had a heart attack and it was diagnosed. Come on we all need to grow. Just because a chicken dies suddenly does not mean it’s a heart attack! Renee this is not an attack on you. It’s just a simple dissassimalitation of information shared by people who don’t question what they read or hear!
It is just possible that the heart does not grow at a rate capable of supporting the body; and that the body expires because of the lack of blood flow. Does the body fail because blood is not received for vital organs, or does it fail because the heart does not receive blood needed to continue pumping blood to the body? In this case what is a heart attack??? Exsanguination??? Is it possible that blood is not produced at a level to provide blood for all organs to function properly? In this case (organ shut down) is not heart attack! I fully accept that; lack of enough blood to maintain biofunction or biomass will kill a chicken, but that does not a heart attack make!!!!
Listen I am saddened that we would do this to animals that I keep as pets. My foxy talks to me every time I am in the coop: I am her roo! I also recognize that the meat chicken industry needs many changes, just as the egg industry. I just think that if we are to move forward in humanity we need to correct some of our miss-observations. Again peace to you all!!!!

Look Mike I wasn't trying to be mean with what I said about anything , but I do think you went bit far by jumping Renee about the heart attack thing why is it not possible. I mean Are we looking at a bird with Giagantisum? So your saying this birds body (muscles) grows faster then its organs and bones. If that is the case then how can this pooor bird walk or stand with these big bulky legs,and feet, why wouldn't its organs grow at the same rate . I mean what about that hybrid vigor we keep hearing about, if this bird grows that fast why wouldn't its organs start to shut down as well.
Now I am really confused

Daren

 

[ChooksChick]

Obviously it's a lot easier to say a bird outgrows its organs and has a heart attack than it is to go through the entire disorder, but I'll cut and paste the exact info here, courtesy of the Merck Vet Manual's Poultry Section. It may be a stretch to call it a heart attack, but if you're looking at ventricular fibrillation it's a fair call.

Flip-over disease has been reported in most areas of the world that intensively raise broilers. Young, healthy, fast-growing broiler chickens die suddenly with a short, terminal, wing-beating convulsion. Many affected broilers just “flip over” and die on their backs; 60-80% are males. The condition is uncommon or unrecognized when low-density feed is used and the ratio of feed intake to weight gain is >2.5 at 6 wk, or when broilers take 8 wk to reach 2 kg.
Etiology and Epidemiology:
The cause is unknown but probably is a metabolic disease related to carbohydrate metabolism, cell membrane integrity, and intracellular electrolyte balance. Death may result from ventricular fibrillation. The modern broiler tends to overeat and continues to grow rapidly while maintaining a low feed-to-gain ratio. Flip-over appears to be related to high carbohydrate intake. It is not known whether a genetic predisposition exists.
Incidence in a rapidly growing healthy broiler flock is typically 1-4%.

Clinical Findings:
Broilers show no premonitory signs. They appear healthy and may be feeding, sparring, walking, or resting, but suddenly extend their necks, gasp or squawk, and die rapidly with a short period of wing beating and leg movement, during which they frequently flip onto their backs. They also may be found dead on their sides or breasts.
Flip-over may occur as early as day 3 and may continue until 10-12 wk in roaster flocks. Peak mortality varies but usually is between days 12 and 28, although it can be as early as day 9. It may occur after day 28, particularly if growth is restricted in young broilers. Mortality of 0.25-0.5% per day can occur for 1-3 days.
Lesions:
Confirmation is difficult because no specific gross or histologic lesions are present. Dead birds are well fleshed, have an empty or partially filled crop containing normal ingesta, and feed in the gizzard. The abdomen is distended because the bird is fat and because the intestines are dilated and filled with semisolid digesta and mucus (as in any broiler that dies with the intestine full of feed). There is no evidence of stasis. The muscles are mottled red and white with congestion of the dependent muscles. Organs are moderately to severely congested. There may be small hemorrhages in the liver and kidney. The ventricles of the heart are contracted (but not hypertrophied), and the atria are dilated and blood filled. (If autolysis is advanced, the ventricles may be dilated.) The lungs are congested and frequently edematous; however, pulmonary edema increases with time after death and is not prominent in broilers that are examined within a few minutes after death. The gallbladder may be small or empty (as it is in many broilers on full feed).

Diagnosis:
Good broilers found dead on their backs may be assumed to have died of flip-over because that position is rare in death from other causes except cardiac tamponade, asphyxia, and ascites syndrome ( Ascites Syndrome). Birds in good condition on their sides or breasts, scattered in a random fashion in the pen also usually are considered to be dead from flip-over. Diagnosis is supported by the full GI tract (particularly the full intestine); large, pale liver; large, normal bursa; contracted ventricles and dilated, blood-filled atria; lung congestion and edema; and the lack of pathologic lesions.
The condition called sudden death syndrome in Australia in broiler breeders coming into production is a different disease; it is reported to be caused by potassium deficiency. Similar mortality caused by a combination of high environmental temperature and hypophosphatemia or by acute hypocalcemia has been reported in North America.
Sudden death in turkeys can be caused by choke, aortic rupture ( Dissecting Aneurysm: Introduction), focal (obstructive) granulomatous pneumonia, or by hypertrophic cardiomyopathy ( Round Heart Disease of Turkeys: Introduction) with lung congestion and edema, splenomegaly, and perirenal hemorrhage ( Perirenal Hemorrhage Syndrome of Turkeys: Introduction).

Prevention and Control:
The incidence of flip-over disease can be minimized by slowing the growth rate of broilers, particularly during the first 3 wk of life. Growth rate can be moderated by controlling nutrient intake. This can be accomplished by reducing day length (number of hours of light per day), providing a ration low in energy and protein, or limiting the amount of feed provided to broilers.


I definitely get the desire for clarification, and am always learning as anyone with a curious mind should be! My feeling on meaties is that increased protein and complex carbs (forage, animal protein), lower simple carbs (corn), and limited duration of feeding time (taking the food away at night). I have limited direct knowledge, as I've only raised heritage dual-purpose for processing, not CornishX. I have read enough about it to feel confident about calling the situation 'outgrowing organs' and 'heart attack.'

 

[ChooksChick]

BTW: cats do not have the same nutritional requirements as poultry. Cat food is significantly higher in certain minerals, particularly sodium, than is acceptable for poultry in any real quantity. It's a much harder thing to try to balance the phosphorus, calcium and magnesium in poultry when you have the nutrients that are in the cat food in such abundance, and yet other nutrients lacking. Furthermore, cats are carnivorous, whereas poultry are omnivorous insectivores, and tend to obtain the majority of their protein from insects when able (the bugs they love tend to be a 40% protein, 30% fat contribution to their diet).

While you could augment their diet with cat food, the protein may or may not be significantly higher than the feed you normally give them: normal layer feed is around 16% and game starter is around 30%. Other formulas run the gamut in the middle. Canned cat food is generally significantly higher in fats, and can help when a bird needs more fat, like the Silkied Ameraucanas. Moderation is key.

I use software to get the nutrition right. It's not just a crap shoot. Refinement is also part of the game, and the recipe changes.

 

[Ivywoods]

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So many, many things are lumped into the term "heart attack." If poultry people want to call it "flip over" I've not got a problem with that. I just know that many conditions are lumped into the non-specific term of heart attack.

Someone dies of ventricular fibrillation... they call it a heart attack.
Someone has a cardiac arrest...they call it a heart attack.
Someone has a coronary artery blockage or embolus... they call it a heart attack.
Someone has myocarial insufficiency and acute failure... they call it a heart attack.

If my chicken flips over and croaks, I'm probably just going to assume it had a "heart attack." I doubt that I will be taking it to KSU for an autopsy.

Since raising broilers is often a commercial enterprise, it has been economically feasible to examine the causes of death and the effects of different feeding strategies. Besides the info listed here, I'm sure there is more supportive as well as conflicting information.

Personally, I don't raise broilers. Why? I HATE to butcher chickens! Yes, I love to eat them, but I can't stand the plucking part.

 

[ChooksChick]

Susie, I have a flock of gorgeous banty Cochins and some of my finest came from ShelleyD1969 (I think she may not have the second 'e') in Michigan, and she often has juvie or POL birds. You might check with her, or Steve Wheat of Bantam Barn. I have an equal number of roos and hens, so I can't spare a single one!

I have 20 in the incubator, though, so if you want to go for chicks, I'll have them in 3 weeks!

 

[OzawkieBantams]

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So many, many things are lumped into the term "heart attack." If poultry people want to call it "flip over" I've not got a problem with that. I just know that many conditions are lumped into the non-specific term of heart attack.

Someone dies of ventricular fibrillation... they call it a heart attack.
Someone has a cardiac arrest...they call it a heart attack.
Someone has a coronary artery blockage or embolus... they call it a heart attack.
Someone has myocarial insufficiency and acute failure... they call it a heart attack.

What would you call Atrial fibrillation ?
Or Tachycardia?

 

[OzawkieBantams]

Quote:
So many, many things are lumped into the term "heart attack." If poultry people want to call it "flip over" I've not got a problem with that. I just know that many conditions are lumped into the non-specific term of heart attack.

Someone dies of ventricular fibrillation... they call it a heart attack.
Someone has a cardiac arrest...they call it a heart attack.
Someone has a coronary artery blockage or embolus... they call it a heart attack.
Someone has myocarial insufficiency and acute failure... they call it a heart attack.

What would you call Atrial fibrillation ?
Or Tachycardia?

All Relevant

 

[Ivywoods]

Cardiac arrhythmia.... unless it leads to death, in which case "some" people might call it a heart attack, but it is still an arrhythmia.