Teddy Bear?

[BarbaraNH]

That is an important point, Rollyard. I should have put that together, that the spot limiting factor couldn't be influencing the TB downing pattern in Australian pearls. The mystery continues.

Unless... the m factor is present in Australian guinea fowl but is being suppressed somehow. Or maybe the m factor doesn't have anything to do with anything. Perhaps it is the white gene that is the culprit in these downing patterns. Then again there could be several ways that the TB downing pattern could originate. I think I'm going to give it rest - for tonight anyway. LOL

 

[rollyard]

If m factor in our guineas here & something other suppressing, then the suppressor is pervasive here in Oz.

I think the white could have something to do with it.

 

[PeepsCA]

Heya Rollyard...

Glad you chimed in, even tho this subject was dead and buried long ago, lol. Since it's been dug up and is getting kicked around again... have you figured out anything else about the pearling all the way up the neck vs the (normal/typical) solid colored bib that fully-pearled varieties can have (here in the US anyway), that may or may not be related to the blended down keets...?

If m factor in our guineas here & something other suppressing, then the suppressor is pervasive here in Oz.

I think the white could have something to do with it.

White, as in Pied? Because, with as many pure White Hens as I have in my flocks, I know not all of my blended down (and Pied) keets are being produced by them. The majority of my blended down keets are produced by my Pied Hens... but these Hens are for the most part breeding with non-Pied (and unrelated) males. So apparently whatever the factor is, only one copy of it is needed to produce the blended down.

Oh and just curious, have you ever hatched out any of these solid down keets that are not Pied to some degree? I haven't, nor have I seen any pics or posts about any keets that did not mature to be Pied.

Quote:

LOL, mostly? Thanks Barbara

 

[BarbaraNH]

Just the pied part, Peeps. I know your question is directed to Rollyard, but I did just post that I have talked to two breeders (you even know of them!) who claim to have hatched out non-pied TB down pattern keets. One says that most of her outcomes have not been pied, with the occasional pied thrown in there. The other I think gets most pied with some that are not pied. Sorry for dredging up this conversation. I didn't know how to find the right thread to post my thoughts in, and I did feel that I had some information that was pertinent to the discussion.

I'm not sure that any pictures would make a difference (any grown guinea could be claimed to have had a TB down pattern as a keet), but I can ask if there are any pictures to help back up what I'm talking about.

 

[PeepsCA]

The non-Pied blended down keets hatched by breeders I know is news to me... so yah, pics of the blended down non-Pied birds as keets, and then as adults would be nice to see.

With so many of my Pieds (having different degrees of Pied on them) breeding with unrelated non-Pied birds in my flocks you'd think I'd also be hatching plenty of non-Pied blended down keets right along with the blended down Pieds. But none have shown up.

Sometimes, (especially to people that aren't all that experienced at IDing keets) the lightly Pied keets do not look Pied at hatch, and you can't tell they are actually Pied until they start to feather in... sometimes they can just have a couple of white flights and then later on just a speck or 2 of white feathers on the chest after they are fully matured. But they are still Pied. So maybe these other breeders were mistaking slightly Pied keets as non-Pieds. I don't know.

 

[rollyard]

Heya Rollyard...

Glad you chimed in, even tho this subject was dead and buried long ago, lol. Since it's been dug up and is getting kicked around again... have you figured out anything else about the pearling all the way up the neck vs the (normal/typical) solid colored bib that fully-pearled varieties can have (here in the US anyway), that may or may not be related to the blended down keets...?

White, as in Pied? Because, with as many pure White Hens as I have in my flocks, I know not all of my blended down (and Pied) keets are being produced by them. The majority of my blended down keets are produced by my Pied Hens... but these Hens are for the most part breeding with non-Pied (and unrelated) males. So apparently whatever the factor is, only one copy of it is needed to produce the blended down.

Oh and just curious, have you ever hatched out any of these solid down keets that are not Pied to some degree? I haven't, nor have I seen any pics or posts about any keets that did not mature to be Pied.

LOL, mostly? Thanks Barbara

Hi Peeps

No, nothing final yet, but ideas en-mass lol. Consider the following (a little off topic but related further below); Many/most of the wild birds I have seen photos of (in Africa) have the pearled neck pattern. Have a look for yourself & see what you come up with. I would be interested to hear any ones findings on this. There is however described in the literature a sub-species of helmeted guinea (Numida meleagris), ie, Numida meleagris galeata. This sub is reported to be of west African origin (along with N. m. sabya, likely closely related). It (they) is also the only sub-species I have sen reported to have the "violet grey collar". I have never called the collar a new mutation, nor do I consider it to be, but the "collar" trait is different to the main stream as I see it, & something must cause it. It also appears for the moment to have some bearing, in some birds, on "white expression".

Some pics of birds labeled galeata


From http://www.triplov.com/zoo_ilogico/aves_silvalino/pages/numida_meleagris_galeata.htm


From http://www.pbase.com/botb/image/111780033

Yes, white as in pied, ie, the factor that causes white spotting/markings largely on breast. In Australia, the major factor for pied has nothing to do with all white birds. I say that our major factor for pied here nothing to do with all white because we don't have white birds (generally) here in Oz. If they are here, no one who is anyone ever seas them! Some have selectively bred what they call "reverse pieds" (strange title for me) by selecting birds with likely base of major factor for white while accumulating, or bringing to surface, other minor factors that increase amount of white over generations.

It doesn't surprise me that you haven't appeared to breed pied birds from white due to above, ie, it is possible that your pied birds erroneously given given the glory for making white? Some also think that multiple diluters @ work create white, or near white. And possibly a single factor when in pure form creating pure whites. Someone over there needs to pen mate a pure white bird with a wild-type (known not to carry recessive mutations, very difficult I should think), then interbreed progeny bred. See what you get.

Yes, all of my blended down keets (solid pattern, my term

) are produced by pied birds. For example, from a pen of pearl grey birds, all pied to varying degree, & all carrying auto recessive cinnamon (red eye) factor, all keets produced were solid pattern (TB's); not one striped, & I bred a lot of them. I have found as you have that it only takes one dose of factor for pied to create TB keets.

No, I have never hatched a solid pattern down keet that wasn't pied to some degree. It is extremely variable, ie, some may go onto develop only three or four white breast feathers, while some largely white on breast. We have to remember that it is possible that some TB keets don't express white @ all. Need to consider expressivity you see.

To reiterate, all of my sold pattern (TB) keets have developed some white on breast, & all have had the pearl neck pattern. My lavenders/silver exception re: pied markings. They are not related (in my time) to the pearls & cinnamon. All have had a collar (colour dependent on colour of bird), ie, darker for lavender than silver. All had stripd down as keets. Yet some have white (pied) on breast? Questions; does lavender somehow revert down pattern on keets to striped pattern in pied birds? Is one factor dominant over the other, ie, do the collared birds have white (pied factor) that can't express, or vice versa?

I have a lavender male (with collar) mated to pearl pied hens (no purple/violet neck collar) to test for next season.


BarbaraNH, I think this thread OK for discussion on TB related stuff. I would like to see any photos. Your information is pertinent

 

[PeepsCA]

To be honest Rollyard, for years I always assumed the bib on fully-pearled varieties available here in the US was normal. I had never paid much attention to how the wild type looked other than that they were Pearl Grey... but I am not a fan of Pearl Grey, so maybe that's why, LOL. The flock of Pearl Greys I started with all had bibs, and the remaining Pearl Greys from that bloodline and the offspring I have kept from them (including a couple Lavenders) all have bibs. It wasn't until I started breeding the mix of Pieds and non-Pieds (2 different bloodlines, not all related) that I started getting birds with pearling all the way up the neck... and until you and I discussed it a couple yrs back I had never noticed they were any different than the rest, lol. I was too busy constantly collecting eggs, selling all the crazy numbers of keets I was hatching, and counting all my light birds 20 times a day making sure no predators had nabbed anyone while they were out free ranging, lol.

Just to clarify (not sure, maybe I read you wrong), but I have hatched Pieds from White X Color (and White X Pied), and I have also hatched Whites from Pied X Pied... what I meant was that if White (as in a pure White bird) was a major factor in the blended down occurring in/on keets, my White Hens do not always produce blended down keets in every hatch, no mater who they have bred with. Some of my pure White Hens do produce (Pied) blended down keets, but not all of their Pied keets hatch out with blended down either. I would have to say that my Pied Hens (which I have 10Xs as many with and without bibs) produce them more frequently, but because of the ratio of pure White Hens to Pied Hens in my flocks (and the fact that I do not separate pairs or trios for breeding) that really says a whole lot a of nothing

lol

Ok ok, blended vs solid, my term your term lol... over here we have a lot of keets that already hatch (normally) with solid down/no stripes, they are in our non-pearled variety, so that's why I say blended, because it can get confusing (but you can use whatever term you want, lol). Plus if you look at the blended down keets closely (mine anyway), especially on the Pied Pearl Greys with the blended down... there are actually 2 individual colors of down fibers, blended

Anyway, I don't really think I have anything else of much value to contribute to this topic (that I haven't already said at one point or another), plus my Pied breeding "program" if that's even what it can even be considered has actually veered away from trying to breed certains birds together to produce Pied fully-pearled varieties... lately I have been concentrating more on hatching non-Pied and heavily Pied keets in just a select few of the less common colors in the partially-pearled variety over here, since I've recently decided I now prefer those running around my yard, lol. So unless some pics of non-Pied blended down keets and pics of them after they've matured as non-Pied birds surface I'll just read and follow along...

 

[rollyard]

I had meant to mention "penetrance" above. A % of birds with a factor for a trait may not express that trait, eg, some guineas with the pearled neck pattern may also have whatever it is that generates expression of white while not expressing white. I don't know, but something to consider.

Peeps, no problems. I am @ a bit of a dead end myself until something else happens to go on here, or, until someone else has other info to put forward.

I mentioned the collared birds specifically because I had thought based on past reading that lots of your birds over there, & elswhere do have the neck collars, but, in the wild (those I was alluding to above), many/most of the subspecies have the pearl neck pattern. If you ever see photos of some of the sub-species, for example,[FONT=Verdana, Arial] [/FONT]Numida meleagris reichenowi, you will note the pearl neck pattern.

Numida meleagris reichenowi; source http://www.safari-wangu.de/perlhuehner.html



Quote: Source http://biostor.org/reference/109795.text

Yes, you could hatch pieds from white x color because white hiding pied (you can't see the white for the white), & as already figured, only one dose of factor for pied required (based on my own early findings, but it may not be so straight forward) to produce pied (Incompletely dominant).

And you could hatch whites from pied x pied if the mutation for white a recessive. Also the theory floating whereby pied & white factors in guineas are possibly similar to that in Peafowl, ie, pied & white mutations alleles. Pied allele recessive requiring two doses to produce minimal pied pattern expression. White allele incompletely dominant & requires two doses to produce white. Pied & white alleles combined produce heavily pied pattern; so, two pied birds each genetically white/pied @ the locus for same could produce pure white, heavier pied, & lighter pied birds (if same scenario as peafowl). If our factor for pied happened to be the same as yours, then we must be lacking its (pied) white allele here in Oz. It is potentially very complex, hence the reason very careful matings with birds that have been tracked production-wise for some time used (pen breeding).

From what I have experienced, birds generally with your "blended down" grow up to feather with pearl neck pattern & white on breast. But there are exceptions, as in your collared pied birds. Lots more work to be done. I think blended is probably as good a way of describing as any.

I have had to edit this a couple of times because, well because lol....

 

[BarbaraNH]

Blended confuses me just as much as any of the other descriptive terms, so I guess it's just as good. LOL Although, I have seen photos of the heads of some TB down pattern keets that look just like the heads of normal pearl gray keets (with the wide dark stripe and maybe part of one of the smaller side stripes along each side before the large white sections around the eyes). The head colors were not "blended" as such. It was just that the outer smaller striped sections were missing. I was told that these feathered out as normal pearl grays and were not pied. But, I know that only pictures (not my words) are what is needed as "proof."

As I suspected, one of the breeders who had mostly non-pied adults from TB down pattern keets did not take any pictures of them. She says that she knew the adults had been TBs as keets because she kept them all together, and they ranged together as adults apart from the other guineas that she had hatched. She said that she only noticed one or two white chest feathers in the group as adults. There were about 10 guineas in the group and most had been TB down pattern keets. She could not say exactly how many TBs had been in the group, but it had been the majority. Peeps, I doubt that this breeder (from Texas) would have had trouble identifying either the keets or the adults. She is a long-time breeder and has hatched out lots of keets.

The other breeder may have some photos of TB down pattern keets as well as some photos of them as adults but did not have them handy. If I am sent any, I will certainly post them here. One, in particular, was a lavender TB but it was killed. I am told that at the time it was killed, it had no white feathers at all. I don't know if it might have gotten some in as it got older.

I remembered something else that I wanted to comment on. As to the Italian grigio dissimile photo, I think it is an old photo, maybe even originally a black and white, that could have been enhanced by adding in the color. I sincerely doubt that it was altered to try to deceive anyone. It could be easily disproved if the keets never existed. Somebody in Italy would know. I think there is very likely a connection with the TB patterned keets that we are seeing in the U.S. now as well as the keets in Australia. They would have to have been introduced into Australia a long time ago, since there has been no importation of guinea fowl there for many years. I wish I knew when the grigio dissimile were hatched and when they disappeared. I've tried to research that, but I've not been successful.

So, barring any new photos that I am handed, I don't know that I have much else to contribute to this conversation either. I'm certainly no geneticist, but I do find this whole subject fascinating. I'm sure that the "real" scientists would laugh at my contributions, but that's okay. I'm here to be corrected if I'm wrong, and I definitely don't claim to be right all of the time.

 

[rollyard]

BarbaraNH, thanks for information/thoughts. I am just about to go away until tomorrow, so only brief reply. Will return to this though when I get back.

I too experience some variation in some of the TB keets (& some of the striped keets also). Some have had "weak" (for want of better word) striping evident, but same not so clearly defined as in striped down keets, more blended therefore I guess you might say. Others just the mottled colour. I will see if I have photos when I get back. I have found, particularly in later batches, some keets very very dark in down, could almost be confused for near black under certain lighting.

Unfortunate about the photos, but that is the way it goes. I wonder if the one or two white chest feathers in the first breeders birds occured in all 10 guineas in the group? This for me would still be in keeping with birds TB patterned in keet down & maturing with pearled neck pattern. My first keets that hatched from non-pied pearl male with "purple violet" collar (easier to describe as grey) x "fully" pied pearl neck patterned female mostly had only a few white feathers on breast. None fully pied (if I can describe as such, ie, mostly white breast). Unfortunately, have no record of keet down pattern as wasn't something I was focused on @ the time.

For the other breeder & Lavender juvenile (as I interpret) that was killed; it could be that this bird may have gone on to develop some white, especially if minimal. I can't find any white in some of mine until well feathered, & well grown. There is a keeper here who hatched some keets given by a friend I think, one non-striped lavender, & diferent to mine that have all been striped lavender. I am pretty sure that in juvenile photo it has some white but will try to verify. If I can will add video & photo (not sure if allowed to here) below? You will notice some variation in the brown keet down colour one very dark, all are TB's.

Video & photo courtesy of "Squeaker"



For the Italian "dissimile" (spelling) photo/info. Haven't time to source photo, but from memory, they did appear very dark, for whatever reason eg, old film, lighting, under-exposure, or very dark keets. As mentioned, some of mine have been very dark. I think one in the clip above also. I too think there is a connection between pictured keets & those TB's found elsewhere. From memory they are now extinct in Italy. I tend to think they may have grown up pied? Yes, suspect they would have been introduced here (Oz) many years ago. I think they (in Italy) only have collared birds, but might have this wrong, impression from photos or something I have read. Again will try to find more info on return when more time.

Some information re: dissimile in following quote that you may not have seen borowed from http://www.ilpollaiodelre.com/ientra.htm Link for Guineas dosn't seem to work currently?

Quote:
I find the subject very interesting also. If the scientist laughs @ you they will laugh @ me too.