Teddy Bear?

[rollyard]

I would have to disagree with your comment re: your brain power PeepsCA, as mine struggles to cope every minute of the day.

I was looking @ this Link this morning which you have likely seen before as have I, but I never took too much notice of keet down. Now I see some keets here described as solid colour without stripes & not pied?

Another look @ this Link shows that the Violet, Slate, Pewter, Powder Blue, & Sky Blue keets all tally up with the genetic table as being absent for pearling. That is, keets that mature as adults without pearling do have the solid down (no striping) according to info on these links! They are the only keets that have solid down pattern (except the light blue but does look to have stripes in that pic?) in photos, & only "known" common denominator for all is that they mature without pearling!

Does this mean then that pied pattern & pearling not necessarily for causing solid downed keets? Would you still call these solid downed non-pied keets TB's (no facial white markings adding to appearance)? Solid down keets without striping now reported in pearled, non-pearled, pied, & non-pied? Is some other factor @ work?

Something to ponder

 

[PeepsCA]

Quote:
LOL I hear ya, some things just come more naturally to certain people... say like with cooking, and understanding computers; I can do all that blindfolded, left handed, backwards and in my sleep... it all just clicks for me, but when it comes to wrappin' my brain around Guinea Fowl gentics, I just can't get a solid grip on it

Quote:
I've mentioned in a previous post on here (that you may have or have not read) how every single Guinea Fowl color chart on the internet that I've been able to find has discrepancies/imperfections/mistakes in their descriptions and pics... (the link you provided being a perfect example of that - that's purely a personal opinion tho)... but, putting that personal opinion aside and putting forth this one... All of the non-pearled variety of Guineas that are absent of stripes as keets (Violet, Slate, Pewter etc) typically have a rusty color blended in or blanketed over the underlying down colors on the areas of the head, neck and back (except for Powder Blue, & Sky Blue). The TBs do not display the rust, they seem more to display a more uniformly mottling/blending of the different brown and tan colors, ALL OVER... so no, IMO the keets in the non pearled color family really aren't solid patterned keets at all, they have the rusty variation and are just basically missing stripes... in my mind I consider them significantly different from the TB pattern.

I have not really factored this into the cause of the TB markings at all at this point, mostly because I just don't see a connection there (fully pearled vs non pearled, being complete opposites)...

Doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't a connection tho and that this is not an influencing factor, and it is most definitely something to ponder in the whole BIG PICTURE of how the different variations and mutations of how the genetics all factor into the TB phenotype... (or genotype). Due to my lack of knowledge and understanding of how Guinea Fowl genetics work (or poultry genetics work in general)... it just doesn't click for me

Sigh... lol.

 

[perchie.girl]

 

[rollyard]

No I haven't seen those posts, not much time lately for computer. Further googling found a couple more sites on keet colour & a little confusing. Found this Link interesting; identifies keet head pattern as being linked to degree of pearling, ie, fully pearled = broader middle stripe with two narrow stripes either side, partially pearled = irregular stripes, no pearling = solid colour/no stripes. Crawfords book supports partially pearled keets (margarogene factor) as having the "smaller wavy head streaks" when compared to regular pearled keets.

Yes I read that the more solid coloured keets (Violet, Slate, Pewter) are "red instead of striped". Powder Blue & Sky Blue have lavender, & that ? may mask to some degree expression of the red/rust? in these keets? Otherwise no common known factor between Violet/Slate/Pewter & Powder Blue/Sky Blue that I can see, apart from the gene which removes all pearling?

Re: comparison between your TB keets & others without head stripes in above links, there is a major difference I can see; yours are pearled, & they aren't! I think this may be what you are saying about them being complete opposites? There are a couple of pics lower down on above linked page (just above Pied keets) that show two keets with "widows peaks" & described as maturing into pearled birds. One keet looks very similar to yours with white on face. It does look like factor for complete abscence of pearling that is ? responsible for keet down pattern "no streaks" in links could be different to that which produces "widow peak" in your keets in-part because yours are pearled?

I wonder how accurate are the striping & no-striping indicators, ie, how variable the expression? For example, do all keets that exhibit the small wavy iregular stripes grow into partially pearled adults, or not? I will have to think on it all some more

 

[PeepsCA]

Quote:
I have seen that color chart link too, it consists of most of the same exact pics and descriptions as another chart (posted on another site) that I have used as a reference quite frequently when researching certain keet colors in question, and even tho the chart from the other site is the most accurate/thorough chart out there, it still has several mistakes/discrepancies in either the pics or descriptions... this chart in the most recent link you provided has several of the same mistakes/discrepancies in the pics and descriptions (so this person may have helped the other site create their chart, or this person may have just copied some or most of their chart, I don't know, but they are very similar).

Anyway, all of my TB keets with widows peaks are Pied to some degree (so maybe "Pied TB" really would be a better term to use than just TB

), the width of the widows peak is always directly related to the amount of Pied the keet will have when it feathers out... the more narrow the widows peak, the more Pied they turn out to be). Even the normally striped/maked Pied keets with widows peaks are always Pied to some degree as well, also depending on the width of the peaks, so my opinion is... (based on my own Pied TB keet and regular Pearl Grey keet hatching experiences and pics of other Pied TBs and regular Pearl Grey keets that others have hatched)... that the pics and description in the 2 color charts saying widow peaked keets feather out as Pearl Greys are incorrect, lol. I'd be willing to bet that THOSE 2 keets both feathered out as Pied Pearl Greys. There's just too much white on them for them to NOT be Pied, especially on the sides of their faces where it would normally be a cream color below the last stripe on a regular Pearl Grey keet. All of my TB marked keets that look like those 2 keets have feathered out as Pied Pearl Greys (the keets with the mottled/blended brown coloring have anyway, the other keets in other mottled/blended colors have feathered out accordingly to be either Pied Buff Dundottes, Pied Browns, Pied Lavenders, Pied Lite Lavenders and Pied Porcelains), every single one of them. IMO whatever gene is responsible for the Pied TB pattern doesn't relate with the widows peak pattern at all, I strongly believe the widows peak is strictly controled by/related to the Pied gene. I have yet to see any of the TB patterned keets that are not Pied to SOME degree, even it if was only just a couple white chest feathers and white wing feathers (mine or someone else's). But if you come across any, please let me know!

Oh and for what it's worth, all of my partially (or semi) pearled keets (with the margarogene factor - the irregular striping/squiggly broken lines on their head, plus white wings all the way to the shoulders), no matter their colorm have all feathered out to partially (or semi) pearled birds. I've hatched Royal Purple, Coral Blue, Chocolate, Buff, Opaline, and a few of these have surpised me as turning out Pied, but they did not show any visual difference in their markings until they started feathering out, (white wing feathers showing up first, then chest feathers a little later). And none have been TB marked at hatch.

I don't know if that cleared anything up or not... but there ya go, lol

 

[filly1969]

I found this whole thread very intresting. I didn't realize there were TB keets but I now know what some of mine have been hatching out are/

 

[perchie.girl]

I found this whole thread very intresting. I didn't realize there were TB keets but I now know what some of mine have been hatching out are/

Kewel....

pix please....

 

[PeepsCA]

I found this whole thread very intresting. I didn't realize there were TB keets but I now know what some of mine have been hatching out are/

TB is just a term used by some breeders for describing the solid pattern down/different markings that typically are not listed on any color charts... it's not an official or recognized Guinea or keets term by any means. But it does at least help describe/ID the different looking down pattern of fully pearled (and usually Pied to some degree) keets that show up in a lot of hatches.

 

[BarbaraNH]

I know this thread is very old, but I wanted to help clarify a few things about the term "Teddy Bear keets" and I couldn't find a more appropriate thread or more recent thread.

PeepsCA is mostly correct in her description. It is used to describe the appearance of guinea fowl keets that will eventually feather out as a number of different colors but that do not have the typical pattern of head and body stripes that would normally identify what they are. Teddy Bear is not an "official" term used by most breeders of guinea fowl. It is a term coined by someone who used to breed guinea fowl and operated a hatchery in Oklahoma. Michael Mason of Mason Hatchery called these keets Teddy Bears after his two young daughters exclaimed that they looked like "little teddy bears," presumably because of their overall brownish coloring with wide areas of white around their eyes. They grew into standard pearl grays. I don't know for sure if they were pied or not, but I always thought that they were not. Michael's term was used only to identify keets that would feather out as pearl grays. He suspected that the phenotype resulted from a muddling of the pearl gray and royal purple color genes, as he also had royal purples in his flock. He thought that the white area around the eyes was typical of a royal purple, hence why it appeared that way on a pearl keet. I don't believe he ever had any other colors emerge as TBs, but I know that since then, like Peeps, others have hatched out TBs in various colors. Pearl grays are still the most prevalent as far as I know. I know that Peeps has only hatched out TBs that have been pied (maybe mostly dark pied as they are minimally white?); but I have talked to two other breeders who have hatched out TBs that feathered out without any white feathers at all.

What causes this Teddy Bear appearance is a mystery to me, but I suspect that the margarogene factor (the spot limiting factor) may have something to do with it. Perhaps there is a connection with the pied gene as well, but since guineas that are not pied have grown up from some of these TBs, I don't see it. It makes me wonder if the pied gene just happened to insert itself into this TB phenotype and has confused the issue.

As to the Color Chart found on a couple of different websites, the same person (a former GFIA officer) did work to create the original chart for the GFIA website. Changes have been made over the years to update the GFIA chart in an effort to make it as accurate as possible. There is still a lot of work to be done. Peeps, we'd love to include some of your photos in the chart. One of the problems with identifying guinea fowl colors is that not all areas (within the USA and especially around the world) will produce guineas in the same color shades. Color genetics of guinea fowl are very much influenced by what is available in any given area. I know that your brown/chocolate family of colors tend to run much darker than the birds that are pictured in the GFIA chart. The guineas pictured on the chart came from breeders in Texas, I believe.

I know there was more that I wanted to address, but my brain must be on overload right now. LOL If anyone is interested in discussing this further, maybe we can start up a new thread.

 

[rollyard]

When I first heard the term, "teddy bear", I never assumed that it was an official title, rather, some hobby name so called because it described a phenotype that reminded some of a teddy bear, which is from what you have said, the reason it was called so.

I don't see the link between the so called "margarogene factor (m) & the TB keet down phenotype, @ least not in majority of birds here in Oz. To my knowledge we don't have "m" here in Oz (no minimally/non-pearled birds), & even if we do, I & many other breeders don't have it in our guinea fowl, yet we get the solid patterned (my term) keets also.