Teddy Bear?

[PeepsCA]

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In this pic, what are the ones at the top left and the bottom right? Kind of a lavender and you can notice a pattern on their heads?

Top left is a Coral Blue, bottom right is a Lavender (with normal markings, as opposed to being TB).

ETA...
The same bunch is in the pic 2 pics down in that same post, the Lavender is far left up top, the Coral Blue is a little to it's right, and the Teddy bear Lavender is on the lower left.

 

[watchdogps]

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In this pic, what are the ones at the top left and the bottom right? Kind of a lavender and you can notice a pattern on their heads?

Top left is a Coral Blue, bottom right is a Lavender (with normal markings, as opposed to being TB).

Oh geez, I thought they were the same color! I have a lot to learn. I have two lavenders that I got as adults, so I dont know what they looked like as babies. I need to work on my hatching knowledge over the winter so I can have lotsa babies next year...

 

[rollyard]

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Yes, but you need to be mindful that selected wild-types may be carrying "other" hidden factors for colour/pattern thus contaminating breeding program from onset so results may not be reliable!

I recently saw what looked like a little TB keet somewhere I never expected to see it (don't know why), & guess what; it was pied?

A question I would ask (don't know answer) is do you ever see pied keets with other than TB pattern? And one answer as given by one breeder below:-
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Suggesting that some Pearl Pied keets (? Pearl Greys with pied pattern) are not TB patterned, so more than one factor (than that for ? pied pattern alone) involved in influencing keet down TB pattern it would seem!

 

[PeepsCA]

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It's a bad pic, hard to tell what they really look like in that pic, lol.

I found this pic of some of my keets and labeled them all for ya, so you can see what young Lavender keets look like. I'll have to go dig thru more of my pics if you want to see any that are day olds.

 

[PeepsCA]

Hi rollyard, I was hopin' you'd chime in on this

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Yes, but you need to be mindful that selected wild-types may be carrying "other" hidden factors for colour/pattern thus contaminating breeding program from onset so results may not be reliable!

Yah, that's why I said for the typical backyard breeder/hobbyist the hatches are crapshoots, lol. Mutations/variations in the genes that result in other colors and other pearling patterns originally happened naturally with wild breeding stock anyway, so IMO, chances are even with a genetically pure pair you may end up seeing something new eventually, whether it's with from the original breeding pair or subsequent offspring breedings, which would still alter the results, lol

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Suggesting that some Pearl Pied keets (? Pearl Greys with pied pattern) are not TB patterned, so more than one factor (than that for ? pied pattern alone) involved in influencing keet down TB pattern it would seem!

Yes, I've hatched both (I'd say about a 75%/25% ratio... all from a mixed flock of Pieds, a White and regular colors). So I agree, and strongly feel the Pied gene is most defintely involved, but that it is obviously just one contributing factor. There has to be something else contributing, I just have not figured out what it is. Neither has anyone else, and due to my breeding set up (and my lack of knowledge/understanding of genetics), I doubt I'll be the one to figure it out, lol.

Someone with degree/background in Guinea Fowl Genetics needs to come up with a better term for this pattern of markings other than "Teddy Bear" lol (if this hasn't already happened, if it has I have not stumbled across it yet). I think the breeder/hobbyist that originally coined that term applied it to just Pied Pearl Greys because that was what they were hatching, and they were brown and looked like cute little teddy bears

I've seen another breeder/hobbyist post pics of the Lavender version and call it a "Mystery Keet", lol. The keets I've hatched with these markings hatch in pretty much any/all fully pearled color so far... so I just stuck with the trend and have called them all TBs...

Originally when I first questioned TBs and what caused that variation I was told it had something to do with the genes of Pearl Greys and Royal Purples blending and causing that pattern (I'm sure it was just passed along info from somewhere/someone else and not actual first hand experience tho)... but it made absolutely no sense to me, because at the time I had been sustaining a flock consisting of only Pearl Greys, Royal Purples and Buff Dundottes for several years and had never seen one single TB in the hatches. I had no Pieds in that flock at all, only an occasional white flight feather here and there. I was told I would eventually see a TB. So then I proceeded to hatch 300+ keets from that flock, expecting to see some TBs... needless to say I did not see one single TB out of 300+ keets hatched lol, (I did get 2 Lavenders tho, which was new from this flock). So obviously the person that made the Pearl Grey/Royal Purple gene assumption was way off base!

Hopefully somebody eventually figures it out, because it's interesting... the unknown always is

ETA...
Out of all the TB keets and different colors of TB keets that I hatched, they have all been fully pearled colors... EXCEPT for (out of almost 800 keets) 2 non-pearled Pied Powder Blues, which is the same shade of blue (or dilution of the blue gene to use a better term) as the Lite Lavender (fully pearled) over here in the US (and there may be a 3rd, I'm not sure yet, it's only just now 2 weeks old). I have no non-pearled Guineas in my flock at all, nor were there any in the 2 breeding flocks that my breeding flock that's producing the TBs for me came from (and these 3 keets in question were all TBS when they hatched). This was just a case of a naturally occurring mutation showing up, I'm assuming?

So... now I'm wondering if the diluted Lavender gene (or whatever is involved in causing color dilutions) also plays a role in TB markings somehow. Even tho my TBs hatch out in several different colors, it's very probable that most of my breeding flock could be carrying the recessive genes that result in the Lite Lavender color.

I wish I was smarter, sigh. All I can do is make observations and assumptions... and look stupid, lol dangit!

 

[GuineaLady93]

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In this pic, what are the ones at the top left and the bottom right? Kind of a lavender and you can notice a pattern on their heads?

The one on the right is a Lavender, and the left is a Coral Blue.
2 of my favorite colors!

 

[rollyard]

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Are any TB keets hatched that are not pied, ever?

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This I feel could be part of the clue! It would appear the gene that inhibits pearl markings also has influence on keet down pattern, eg, if no pearling then smaller wavy head stripes.

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TB is descriptive I feel.

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Maybe something in this though if keets with pearling (any colour) can be TB patterned, while those without pearling maybe not? Royal Purple is a Pearl Grey without pearling!

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Hence, not just absence of pearling alone causing TB pattern. You had the genetics for no pearling (Royal Purple), but still factor producing TB pattern not in your flock.

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Could therefore your factor for pied in combination with that for pearling (or other factor) contribute to TB down pattern in your keets in current flock?

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Maybe pearling is needed for TB pattern?

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But Royal Purples are mostly non-pearled are they not?

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So "these 3 keets in question" (2 non-pearled Pied Powder Blues) have no pearling, yet they have/had TB keet down pattern? This breaks from trend of only pearled Guineas having TB down pattern as keets?

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Never do you look stupid, & have remarkable observation skills

Conclusions:-
1/ All TB patterned keets are pied? Does pied pattern gene "push" pigments into solid pattern?
2/ Most but not all are pearled? A few non-pearled TB patterned keets?
3/ Generally diluting factors not involved as non-TB patterned (common down pattern) keets come in range of dilute colours also?
4/ Still possibly unknown factor causing TB pattern?
5/ What have I missed?

It would be interesting to breed TB patterned pied Pearl Greys x non-TB patterned Pearl Greys (bred from closed group of birds that produce only common downed keets) together for results, eg, do any/only keets that inherit gene for pied pattern (assuming heterozygous W/w+ involved) have TB pattern; if other factor involved, is it recessive or dominant?

I found this Link about common & uncommon grey keet down pattern you have likely seen. Unfortunately not much info & a little confusing. I think they differ as adults from common Pearl Grey by having pearling on neck also ("black with white spots instead of violet without any spots")? Thought sketches of keet down pattern interesting. No mention of them being pied or not?

Also, top photo Here of, you guessed it, the Pied TB patterned keet I recently found here in Australia. I currently believe our common pied gene here is different to what you have in the states because we don't have white Guineas here, @ least not commonly. As I understand two doses of your common gene for pied makes an all white bird, but ours doesn't? Yet it is a TB Pied patterned down keet is it not?

Edited to remove edits after reading thread more closely! I would repeat one question though for clarification; Are any TB keets hatched that are not pied, ever?

 

[PeepsCA]

All of my TBs have been Pied to some degree, ranging from just slightly Pied (a few white flight feathers and a few white chest feathers) all the way to very Pied (full white chest/breast all the way up to where the neck feathers stop, with almost entirely white wings).

Up until recently, I did believe the fully pearled gene was another huge factor in resulting TBs... but since I now have 2 or 3 non-pearled TBs (the Pied Powder Blues, absolutely NO pearling or barring in them at all), I scratched that concept lol. That's why I suggested the Lavender (blue gene) or diluted Lavender gene (I think you call that silver over there?) being the factor instead of the fully pearled gene. Just guessing tho.

Over here we consider Royal Purples as partially pearled (not non-pearled)... they have barring on the wings and pearling in the flank/skirt area, so we consider them partially pearled. Examples of what we call non-pearled over here are colors like Violet, Copper, Slate, Pewter etc... all are completely void of any pearling or barring anywhere on their bodies. I have none of these colors in my breeding flocks. I don't think Royal Purple or any other color in the partially pearled family is a factor tho, but I could be wrong, my flock could all very easily be carrying the partially pearled gene, hidden just as I suggested they may all be carrying the Lite Lavender gene. But I only have one partially pearled bird in that breeding flock, a male Coral Blue, (he is my Alpha male in that flock), he is not Pied. I guess it is possible he could be the father of ALL the TB keets, but it's not that likely tho, there are 4 other very reproductively active males in that flock (I think it's anyone's guess at this point tho without some DNA testing, lol).

I still have the flock of Pearl Greys, Royal Purples and Buff Dundottes that have never produced a single TB keet, (I have 3 separate, unrelated flocks), so it is possible for me to breed a Pearl Grey that was not a TB as a keet with a Pied Pearl Grey that was a TB as a keet and see what the outcome of the hatches are... I'm just not all that fond of Pearl Greys and Pied Pearl Greys, and spending the money to build another breeding pen just for that experiment is not all that appealing to me, lol. It would be some interesting and possibly valuable info to have tho, in order to get to the bottom of this...

I have seen that article you provided about the keets from Italy... I was just poking fun at it the other day, it's in the thread about Black Guineas. They do appear to be Pied TBs, but the poor quality photo looks excessively altered to me (if you look closely you might notice that they appear to have pins of wing feathers growing in their backs, lol). I think it's fake, made up... both the color and the name for them. Where's the pics of them as adults? There aren't any that I have been able to find.

The link you posted to the picture of the Pied keet you found looks just like the majority of my Pearl Grey TBs. Cute aren't they? Maybe you can contact that person and gain additional info or their thoughts on the factors involved to produce those markings.

That's interesting how your Pied gene does not produce White over there. I have one White Hen in my light colored breeding flock, but hatched at least 50 White keets this year, and I seriously doubt all the White keets are from her because Sometimes I hatched 6 White keets out of only 2-3 days of eggs from that flock, and also she laid very pale white eggs, and not all White keets hatched out of those light eggs. (So just based on these facts alone, I strongly believe pure White keets result from a Pied breeding pair, 25% or less of each clutch resulting in White tho). I'm planning on putting the White Hen in my breeding pen next spring, aiming for specific Pied colors to hatch from her eggs... but I'm still trying to decide which color male to use tho... Coral Blue or Royal Purple. I do know he will not be Pied tho, because I'm really interested in seeing what % of Pied keets the White Hen will produce AND if any White keets show up at all.

I wish someone close to my area that is as interested in the TB, Pied and White factors as I am, and that has the facilities needed to do all kinds of test breedings would just come out to my ranch with a list of birds needed... I'd gladly donate all needed birds to the cause, free of charge, as long as I was kept in the know of all info and results, lol.

 

[rollyard]

Thank you for clarifying some things PeepsCA. I haven't looked @ overseas Guinea genetics for a while but refreshed this AM after reading your post, particularly in relation to pearling, so some of what I have gleaned follows.

Re: pearling & Violet/Royal Purple; I have erroneously assumed that birds with absolutely no pearling still fell within the same genetic category as those with some pearling (semi-pearled) based on one source because there Violet & Royal Purple are listed as being genetically the same (variable expression?). However, some searching found additional info that would appear to support what you have said re: your flock being pearled & semi-pearled, but not entirely absent for pearling, ie, no pearling. Initially I had thought that semi-pearling & no pearling may have been the result of an incompletely dominant gene something like mentioned in this Link, but that would mean that you should still have bred some non-pearled birds @ some time, eg (where M/M is non-pearled, & M/m+ is semi pearled, & m+/m+ is pearled); M/m+ x M/m+ would produce -

25% M/M (non-pearled)
50% M/m+ (semi-pearled) &
25% m+/m+ (pearled)

But just like info in above link goes on to describe, & your own breeding outcomes, only semi pearled & pearled Guineas ever produced! Therefore, whatever factor removes some of the pearling isn't the same as that which removes all of the pearling. Another source Here mentions the likelyhood of another gene being responsible for non-pearling. So I now understand your comment about none of your birds being non-pearled. Could this mean that whatever factor is partially responsible for removing pearling in your birds isn't completely effective resulting in that factors continued contribution towards TB pattern?

As for all white birds; Here in Aus from what I have seen, pied birds are quite common, but there are no whites @ all unless you take into consideration heresay about a few that reportedly have seen them or have them. But I have never seen one, nor have most of the other Guinea keepers I have had contact with. What you have said about breeding 25% whites from a pair of pied birds is congruent with other sources in some places other than here. For eg, W/w+ x W/w+ (where W is for white & incompletely dominant, & w+ is not white) -

25% W/W (white)
50% W/w+ (pied) &
25% w+/w+ (no white)

If our gene for white markings the same as yours, wouldn't we also see outomes like yours with @ least some all-white Guineas being bred when pied crossed with pied? Some breeders have been selectively breeding pied x pied for some generations with anual marginal gain in amout of white in pied birds, but no all whites in instances I have heard about! I did breed some Guineas last season & non-intentionally made some early findings about the pied gene in my birds. This Link explains outcomes.

Now, I leave you with one question; Is it a coincidence do you think that TB Guinea keets seen here in Australia, your breeding in America, & those in that link assumed to be in Italy are all pied birds?

You could well be looking in the right direction re: your thoughts on a form of gene for white pattern having some bearing on TB pattern?

Cheers (PS, maybe somewhat off topic sorry, but indirectly not so much so)

 

[PeepsCA]

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LOL, I don't know... is it? Is having a common denominator (or several) ever just a coincidence?

It kind of miffs me that there's several instances of the TB keets across the globe, yet no real concrete info out there on them already... but then again, documented quality Guinea Fowl info in general is pretty much a rare find, especially anything new that wasn't written 40 yrs ago, lol.

Sorry if I confused you about the partially pearled/semi-pearled and non-pearled birds (I'm in a constant state of confusion, and it's contagious too I think, lol), it's a little difficult to stay on track when there's several terms and phrases for the same color or set of markings depending on which country you are typing from, lol.

Thanks for the links about genetics, I have seen/read them before and mulled over them for hours trying to grasp how Guinea Fowl genetics work... but unfortunately my poor old brain doesn't wrap around words well, I need pictures and "birds in hand" so to speak, and sometimes that doesn't even work

lol.

I still just find that so odd that you guys have so few pure White Guineas down there, yet they are 1 of only 3 colors over here recognized as a standard. I hatched sooooo many of those lil buggers this year. Sometimes they are hard to sell, because the light colored birds get taken by predators so easily... and then there are those that prefer only that color for butchering, because they are more aesthetically pleasing for the dinner table, lol. I'm keeping 2 from this year's hatches, one had a dark grey dot AND a brown dot next to it on the back of its head when it hatched, and it has now matured/feathered out to have a little vertical stripe of dark feathers at the base of the helmet where the neck feathers begin, so does the other one, but it only had a black dot at hatch. Flaws, according to the Guinea Fowl Standards, lol... but like I said, I breed for variety

Oops off topic again...

Thanks so much for sharing your insights and knowledge with me about the TB "phenomenon" lol. I wish I had just half of your brain power!