Théo and the chickens des Sauches

[Perris]

I consulted the OED which has over 4 pages (of the full second edition) devoted to slave and slavery and nearly as much to honour and honourable.

I found the sense in which I was using the word - see number 2.a. below, and particularly the 1809 usage in the Wordsworth Sonnet.
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The closest I could come to a linkage of honour with slavery was via ignoble in this entry (number 2) which is fortunately both obsolete and rare.
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I think I will not alter my inner usage of the word honour, but based on all your reactions I will likely become more cautious in using it in public.
A shame really. The way I used it is a useful and important concept.

I quite understand, and am sorry to have disquieted you over this. Patterson's definition garnered a lot of discussion at the time. Perhaps I should just quote a little to show where he's coming from.

"Honor and power are intimately linked...the free and honorable person, ever alive to slights and insults, occasionally experiences specific acts of dishonour to which, of course, he or she responds by taking appropriate action... What was universal in the master-slave relationship was the strong sense of honor the experience of mastership generated, and conversely, the dishonoring of the slave condition... [now quoting Douglass:] a man without force is without the essential dignity of humanity. Human nature is so constituted that it cannot honor a helpless man, although it can pity him; and even that it cannot do long, if the signs of power do not arise [end of Douglass quote]... The idea that a person's honor is more valuable than his life, and that to prefer life to honor betray a degraded mind, comes close to being a genuinely universal belief... yet it was the choice of life over honor that the slave or his ancestor made, or had made for him. The dishonor of slavery...was not a specific but a generalised condition...

In this chapter [5] I propose to show that, first, in all slave societies the slave was considered a degraded person; second, the honor of the master was enhanced by the subjection of his slave; and third, wherever slavery became structurally very important, the whole tone of the slaveholders' culture tended to be highly honorific." The book is comparative and historical, and I found the argument compelling.

 

[RoyalChick]

Yes I get it. It is the process of dehumanizing the enslaved and elevating the enslaver. The slave is positioned as 'lower than an animal' and unable to have finer 'human' feelings, and the enslaver is positioned as close to God and driven by a higher cause.
Some psychologists believe that it is a necessary part of being able to treat another human being in that way.
The same was seen with the Nazis and the Jews, the Hutus and Tutsis, and countless others.

While those oppressors may have believed themselves to be honourable, I do not have to accept their notion of honour. Just like I don't have to believe that enslaved people are incapable of finer feelings, that Jews are base, or that Tutsi women were promiscuous and liked being raped by their neighbours.

I think it is a dangerous linguistic path. Ultimately all 'good' has been associated at some point with a ruling classes (kindness, charity, volunteering, donating, helping) and those ruling classes inevitably see themselves as superior.
I was about to wander off on George Bernard Shaw's take down of the concept of 'the deserving poor' but then I remembered we are on @ManueB's thread on a chicken site so I will hold back (maybe even honourably!), and instead provide a chicken picture.

 

[BDutch]

Sorry I started all this on the well meant honour. And I even stopped reading the complicated English, because this level of English is too hard for me to understand properly.

But I do like to add one more word on slavery. Hoping Manue doesn’t mind.

I think it’s not fair to mention slavery only in the past sense. Slavery goes on nowadays as well imho. Like in the textile industry and many other factories where they make stuff in poor circumstances for very low wages, And its not just the cheap crap. But many trademarks are guilty as well.

Im talking about people who are so poor that they have no other choice than to work for 14 hours a day. Some people are even set to work in prisons/labour camps because of who they are by birth. If we buy these products we are part of that system too.

The labels are often misleading, not saying where something is produced, but where (made in) it is packed. Unfortunately the world wide trade made it impossible to make sensible choices for many products nowadays. So wd became part of the system wether we like it or not.

Hope I used the right words to explain/and gave a penny of my thoughts.

 

[Molpet]

Sorry I started all this on the well meant honour. And I even stopped reading the complicated English, because this level of English is too hard for me to understand properly.

But I do like to add one more word on slavery. Hoping Manue doesn’t mind.

I think it’s not fair to mention slavery only in the past sense. Slavery goes on nowadays as well imho. Like in the textile industry and many other factories where they make stuff in poor circumstances for very low wages, And its not just the cheap crap. But many trademarks are guilty as well.

Im talking about people who are so poor that they have no other choice than to work for 14 hours a day. Some people are even set to work in prisons/labour camps because of who they are by birth. If we buy these products we are part of that system too.

The labels are often misleading, not saying where something is produced, but where (made in) it is packed. Unfortunately the world wide trade made it impossible to make sensible choices for many products nowadays. So wd became part of the system wether we like it or not.

Hope I used the right words to explain/and gave a penny of my thoughts.

Yes
buying fair trade items helps with this. Like chocolate and coffee. Unfortunately sometimes they test for heavy metals because of the area they are grown. Nothing is simple.

 

[ManueB]

I found the discussion interesting (and I am responsible for mentioning I felt depressed about the world, which had nothing to do with chickens!)
We have the same word honneur in french and without having done any research, I think it also holds that connotation of being associated to power, which makes sense considering that honor in latin could mean magistrature and administrative responsibilities.

@RoyalChick I agree it is both important and a confort to try to be a good person in every day life. It can also be more straightforward to know what is right or wrong (though not always) than trying to have an opinion about world events !
The way I live now, behaving as a decent person is mostly going to concern my chickens though . I am not sure I am always showing my partner the kindness and respect that I should, I could probably do better.

As for modern slavery, I agree. I started buying clothes made in France about three years ago ; but it's been a mixed experience both regarding quality and buying process. I always buy fair trade and organic when I buy exotic foods like chocolate, coffee, tea or spices, but I dont have enough trust in the certifying process, and it still doesn't feel like I am paying for what should be rare luxury goods since it comes from so far away, to make me feel completely at ease about it.
****************
We had a good warm day after a crazy wind storm last night. I’ll just post the chicken pictures, I’m late on other things.

Merle before she went on the nest.

The weather was so nice we had lunch outside and both Piou-piou and Hibou took this to mean they were invited...

Nieva pretending to be tame.

Laurel tree nap.

Merle just off the nest.

Putting some leaves on her back ...

Blanche was doing good today ! She has good and bad days, but overall she is much better than during the last months.

Muddy .

Lilly falling asleep in the foot bath like every evening. She loves the bath, but she hates it when we try to open her feet. The abscess on the worse side has evolved so that now it's not under the foot anymore, but on top of it. I think I would need to incise her foot from above, but i’m not sure about it, and I don't have the right tool. I’m sending pictures to the vet tomorrow. In better Bumblefoot news, Nieva is almost definitely healed. I think in a week or two we will stop tending her foot. It will be five months .

 

[MaryJanet]

I will not alter my inner usage of the word honour, but based on all your reactions I will likely become more cautious in using it in public.
A shame really. The way I used it is a useful and important concept.

I agree it's a shame because clearly the term can use some rehabilitation. For what it's worth, I immediately realised your meaning.

 

[Molpet]

I consulted the OED which has over 4 pages (of the full second edition) devoted to slave and slavery and nearly as much to honour and honourable.

I found the sense in which I was using the word - see number 2.a. below, and particularly the 1809 usage in the Wordsworth Sonnet.
View attachment 3702178

The closest I could come to a linkage of honour with slavery was via ignoble in this entry (number 2) which is fortunately both obsolete and rare.
View attachment 3702177

I think I will not alter my inner usage of the word honour, but based on all your reactions I will likely become more cautious in using it in public.
A shame really. The way I used it is a useful and important concept.

I had always thought of it in the same way as you used it.

I grew up when being on the school honor roll was a good thing.

 

[RoyalChick]

I agree it's a shame because clearly the term can use some rehabilitation. For what it's worth, I immediately realised your meaning.

I had always thought of it in the same way as you used it.

I grew up when being on the school honor roll was a good thing.

Thank you both.
Makes me feel a bit better!

 

[MaryJanet]

a man without force is without the essential dignity of humanity.

I'd quarrel over this point. I hope he backed it up in some way because it's not self-evident.

Even in my own social circles I can name dozens of people without force who have some dignity and who are members of humanity.

Switch self-direction for force and I can begin to see the point.

 

[MaryJanet]

Sorry I started all this on the well meant honour. And I even stopped reading the complicated English, because this level of English is too hard for me to understand properly.

But I do like to add one more word on slavery. Hoping Manue doesn’t mind.

I think it’s not fair to mention slavery only in the past sense. Slavery goes on nowadays as well imho. Like in the textile industry and many other factories where they make stuff in poor circumstances for very low wages, And its not just the cheap crap. But many trademarks are guilty as well.

Im talking about people who are so poor that they have no other choice than to work for 14 hours a day. Some people are even set to work in prisons/labour camps because of who they are by birth. If we buy these products we are part of that system too.

The labels are often misleading, not saying where something is produced, but where (made in) it is packed. Unfortunately the world wide trade made it impossible to make sensible choices for many products nowadays. So wd became part of the system wether we like it or not.

Hope I used the right words to explain/and gave a penny of my thoughts.

I've found buying exclusively from certified supply chains impossible for all items in the wardrobe. Shoes can be particularly tricky to pin down. But I keep trying! Boden is one of the more affordable brands making claims to an ethical supply chain.