The Buckeye Thread

[Minniechickmama]

One item I see pop up often in discussions about our beloved Buckeyes is hearth girth.
Some who are new to poultry might be trying to figure out what this is exactly.
The word girth is defined as follows:
girth |gərθ|
noun
1 the measurement around the middle of something, esp. a person's waist.
• a person's middle or stomach, esp. when large.
2 a band attached to a saddle, used to secure it on a horse by being fastened around its belly.
verb [ trans. ] archaic
surround; encircle : the four seas that girth Britain.

In the book Chicken Encyclopedia by Gail Demerow, pg 175 (viewable online) shows a diagram of a Cornish type bird with the marking across the breast that shows where one would follow across and around to feel or measure heart girth.
Why is this important? Girth in any livestock is important because it is directly responsible for capacity internally, which in turn will allow or disallow an animal to have an adequate intake of food. Food consumption along with its ability to process it determines how the animal converts the food to either meat, milk, eggs, etc..
The deeper heart girth, then translates to more capacity internally, which then gives the bird more foraging/food capacity, which in turn equals the ability to produce food (meat or eggs).
In the case of the Buckeye, we want them to have the ability to do both, so that heart girth is very important.
Heart girth should not be confused with the width between the legs, which is a measure far below the heart girth. That is not to say that the width between the legs is not important, a bird's leg placement should be such that is is able to adequately support the weight and provide balance. This should be neither grossly narrow or exaggeratedly wide.
I have recently seen some videos that are marketed as educational on this topic which clearly the presenter did not do their homework. I cannot stress enough to people new to poultry, regardless of the breed, to research multiple sources to find the answers or information you need to select and breed the best birds you can. This in not limited to the SOP, and there are thousands of resources available online, many of them FREE, that will give you the answers you need to be a good breeder and competitive show breeder if you so choose.

I should make mention that there are birds out there, such as the Cornish Rock Crosses and Broadbreasted varieties of turkeys that this whole concept is thrown off somewhat due to the breeding that goes into them that makes them somewhat freakish in how they consume and process food into the mass that they do.

 

[HappyBuckeye]

Can each of the teams please describe the point system regarding both "type" and "color" as well as describe the specific steps you take when selecting show quality birds?


My Bucks must be robust, they must have balance, they must have depth, feather quality and width, they must have the appropriate color on top, underneath, on the beak, eye, wattles, comb, legs, tail. That is the goal. Will every bird come out that way? No, I guarantee it. You can't possibly have every bird come out show quality and putting them in the show means you are offering up the best of what you have to compete against the best of the breed.
I do not speak for anyone else, as I said. I know some will want to breed for a heftier bird for meat use. Some will want to breed a more thrifty bird for egg laying, and that is fine by me.
But if a person is planning to slap them up on the table for review and critique, then bring the best you can produce that meets the SOP. I agree there need to be balance. even though egg laying ability is not judged, sticking to the SOP should give a balanced bird.

The SOP weighs Type/Shape 63 points and Color 37 points. Of that 37, 28 points are giving to feather color. How can a breeder of Buckeyes ignore over 1/4 of what the breed is supposed to look like? Yes, type is more important, but is it so much more important that you just throw out color? Not to me. Thanks for explaining about the points, that's what I was looking for. I agree. You can only fix one or two traits at a time, but you still need to keep the bigger picture so you don't loose the other finer traits that make up a Buckeye, including color. A 63 point bird that meets type and shape isn't going to make it very far in the show against an 84 point bird that lacks a few points in type or shape. Just my opinion of course. I don't think it should be a case where you have to choose type vs color.

 

[HappyBuckeye]

Using ALL of the SOP including those first 40 pages, I have in my mind what I think my breed should look and feel like. I keep those individuals who best meet those traits in my mind's eye . . . weigh them, compare them with each other; that is about as simply as I can explain it.

Yes, I guess that's exactly what I do as well. I am learning that talking about one's interpretation of the SoP is like talking about one's politics or religion. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cgmccary]

nevermind

 

[Wynette]

I whole heartedly agree, cgmccary - I, too would have picked C #2. I wish you'd have left your choice blank & taken a survey. Just for curiosity's sake. THEN AGAIN - I do not have this breed, I've just been reading on them in this thread, and they have piqued my interest. So of course MY opinion holds no water, since I don't have a red/mahogany bird on my property.

I do very much appreciate your thoughts, here!

 

[slfarms]

If breeding in response to how judges place them . . . . realize that on the same day at a double show . . . I have had one judge place birds #1, #2 & #3 and then the next show, another judge, #3 was # 1 and #1 was #3, the only consistency being #2. Over time, if you took the same birds to show after show, then overall you would probably get a good idea of what is your best bird but you should never go on one or even two judges' opinions. I never do. Instead, you must have the idea bird in your mind according to all of the SOP what your breed should look and feel like and from that, you select. If you start with stock with decent genetics and over time, you are selecting for type & weight and if you hatch enough birds, then you are going to have those individuals who also have good color, good feather quality, nice comb, making them show worthy but not perfect in all ways-- i.e. all those traits people want to argue about.

Do I keep and breed birds who don't have the best color, or the best comb,  or the perfect tail angle? Yes, I do. I may keep & breed them because of some other trait(s) where they are strong -- Are you going to have to pick between this or that trait? Yes. I agree with this statement you have to pick the traits that will compliment the hen or roo and improve the breed

This is a reality for a lot of people who ask about combs, under-color, tail angle, which one should I keep, on here. They get an answer such as, "You should breed for everything, breed for all the traits . . .  Never save one without slate under-color in the back, cull that one, he has an awful comb . . .
I have been told by several mentors the best brood cock or hen will not have all of the SOP qualifications for the show ring. They will have "most" of SOP quality but may lack a medium comb or the wing carriage is to high, color is light due to lack of slating. No one has stated that you cull for one trait missing. You breed to correct it. If I have a hen that matches SOP traits except for having splotchy slating I would pick a Cock that has heavy slating to breed with her and then determine if the chicks have then been corrected. Remember your show cock or hen may not be the best to breed with.

Nice discussion. Picking good quality stock to start with and knowing all of the SOP is best. My interpretation may be different from my mentors but we discuss and come up with a good game plan.

 

[Wynette]

Great discussion, and I am in agreement - I breed Black Copper Marans; the females should have copper hackles. If I use a cock bird that I show to breed with, that cock bird will have a solid black chest; but, his female offspring will either be solid black, or only have one or two copper hackle feathers. Thus, the cock in my breed pen has -

- about 10% copper feathers in his breast. (of course that's a color issue, not a type issue, but a good example of this discussion, I think).

 

[Minniechickmama]

If breeding in response to how judges place them . . . . realize that on the same day at a double show . . . I have had one judge place birds #1, #2 & #3 and then the next show, another judge, #3 was # 1 and #1 was #3, the only consistency being #2. Over time, if you took the same birds to show after show, then overall you would probably get a good idea of what is your best bird but you should never go on one or even two judges' opinions. I never do. Instead, you must have the idea bird in your mind according to all of the SOP what your breed should look and feel like and from that, you select. If you start with stock with decent genetics and over time, you are selecting for type & weight and if you hatch enough birds, then you are going to have those individuals who also have good color, good feather quality, nice comb, making them show worthy but not perfect in all ways-- i.e. all those traits people want to argue about. I have to ask, Chris, in the last sentence in this paragraph, are you implying that if you breed good type that the dark mahogany is going to appear out of thin air? If you don't continually select dark birds also, with a possible lighter colored bird here and there, you will not just magically have that dark color rise up. It is like any other trait, you have to select for it along WITH the type traits you are looking for.


Do I keep and breed birds who don't have the best color, or the best comb, or the perfect tail angle? Yes, I do. I may keep & breed them because of some other trait(s) where they are strong -- Are you going to have to pick between this or that trait? Yes.

Hypothetical: You have to decide, if you must cull one, and say one cockerel (#1) has a perfect comb, a perfect tail angle & a great slate bar in the under-color of his back & a darker bird BUT the OTHER cockerel (#2) is a full pound heavier, has a better front, wider back, thicker skull and shanks but his comb is awful, his tail angle is 10 degrees too low & he has very little if any slate bar in under-color of back, his color is not quite as good -- this is your choice. You can only keep one because you do not have the room and you only hatched 20 chicks. Some would say, "look at that awful comb . . no slate bar under-color in back and low tail angle, his color is not as good"-- four traits that ANYONE, even a rank amateur can see. You must keep the best cockerel for future breeding because you plan to move, get a place in the country & you want to save the best for your future endeavors. I say, let me see the hens you are putting them with, THEN answer the question. That cockbird is not going to give me everything. I have to weigh in all the traits of the hens too. Heck, I thought the hens brought the type while the cockbird brought the color? Am I wrong? So heck yeah, I would take that slightly smaller bird and put him over some nice sized hens and shoot for overall improvement from BOTH ends. As for combs, I am learning to not fuss too much because that is a lot less than the rest of type and color. As long as it is a pea comb, whether it is perfect or not, is better than a bird who otherwise has more pressing issues to concern myself with.

This is a reality for a lot of people who ask about combs, under-color, tail angle, which one should I keep, on here. They get an answer such as, "You should breed for everything, breed for all the traits . . . Never save one without slate under-color in the back, cull that one, he has an awful comb . . . " I am trying to follow the SOP best. I am NOT trying to be argumentative, but I have faced similar choices. I pick the cockerel (#2) who was a pound heavier with bad comb, little or no under-color and low tail. Where did it get me? Did I make the correct choice? Do my overall goals for myself count toward my selection? Should I consider whether I want to some day exhibit? How will my choice effect that? Isn't this what breeding is all about? My example was a little exaggerated but it is similar to what is, in reality, faced every day. I think each person should decide these matters for themselves, their goals . . . .
I hope I never implied that I can breed for every trait at once, and I would never tell anyone they could breed for everything at once. That would be a fool's statement for sure. And yet again, it comes back to what your purpose for breeding is.

 

[slfarms]

Great discussion, and I am in agreement - I breed Black Copper Marans; the females should have copper hackles.  If I use a cock bird that I show to breed with, that cock bird will have a solid black chest; but, his female offspring will either be solid black, or only have one or two copper hackle feathers.  Thus, the cock in my breed pen has -   - about 10% copper feathers in his breast.  (of course that's a color issue, not a type issue, but a good example of this discussion, I think).

Excellent example Wynette!! That's exactly what I was driving at

 

[AinaWGSD]

I say, let me see the hens you are putting them with, THEN answer the question. That cockbird is not going to give me everything. I have to weigh in all the traits of the hens too. Heck, I thought the hens brought the type while the cockbird brought the color? Am I wrong? So heck yeah, I would take that slightly smaller bird and put him over some nice sized hens and shoot for overall improvement from BOTH ends.

Good answer! And something to consider, for sure. Myself, I would still probably choose the heavier bird, but as of right now my primary goal is meat for my family. I may or may not show (if I do we're talking 2 years down the road at the earliest) ever. For now anyway, if I never produce a single show quality bird I'm sure I will still be just as happy with my buckeyes. But I would like to at least make a meager attempt to breed to the standard. Otherwise, I'd probably be just as happy with any barnyard mutt bred with an eye toward meat production.

I plan to have 2 roosters in my flock. We decided to keep 4 cockerels and let them grow out a bit more before making our final decision about which 2 to keep. 3 of them were the biggest. The fourth one is one of the smaller of the 9 cockerels we hatched this summer, but has (in my inexperienced opinion) the best color. He may not have the size I'm looking for, but I figure it might be nice to keep him around a bit even if for no other reason than to remind myself of the color I want to achieve. On the other hand, almost all of the pullets with the best color are sitting in my freezer right now because they were also the very smallest of the hatch. The girls all seemed fairly similar in type to me, so we pretty much went based on weights for them and culled the smallest ones.