The first WINTER - ventilation, heating?

[CandylandRanch]

this is our first winter wth our 10 hens and rooster (easter eggers and buff orps). And today is our first snow!! Here in good ol' Michigan. We have planned for winter , but there are so many things I have read that say one thing and then other articles or opinions that say another..

Our coops is a large shed 12x16) converted. It's insulated, has two home Style windows that can be opend or closed tightly. We had two vents at the top where the roof meets the walls And two other passive vents in the roof but my husband thought they needed closed in the winter. The coop door (12x16 in) is left open all day to their enclosed run. We have two heating lamps going all the time also. The temp near the lamps (but not under them) is keeping above freezing. (For now)

My concerns are the ventilation, which I know is important in the winter. If I open the ones at the top won't the heat escape?? Making it below freezing? Should I crack the windows instead? Or is that too drafty?

Of course I'm concerned about a fire.. Two heat lamps running all the time.. Scary!! But how else do u keep above freezing temps?

I don't want sick or cold chickens, and I don't want a fire or frostbite.. What's the best plan for us?
Thanks in advance!

 

[Mrs. K]

They are your chickens, do what you want. Be ware of the hazards of extension cords, and possible fires.

It is not black and white, however, many people are adding heat, when it is not necessary. They feel guilty if they don't..... and they really don't need too. Often times, adding heat is the problem.

As people, we think of adding heat because we get cold, so we should add heat to our chickens so they don't get cold. When I started, I too thought this way. The next thing we do in our house, is seal it up tight, to keep that heat in so as not to heat the great out doors. So again, we are tempted to do the same with our birds.

It took me a while, and truthfully, I think it is the common statement, "One needs good ventilation, but no drafts" which confused me. No drafts, meant sealed tight to me, ventilation meant a window open.....totally contradictory.

Now I have if figured out. What chickens need, is not heat, chickens need to be DRY. Often times, heating the air causes it to hold more moisture, and while your chickens are warm, they are damp..... going out into the world damp, is COLD and hard on your chickens. If your coop is sealed up, then it is really damp, if the manure is piled up and thawed, that adds to the dampness. If you have a small coop and your chickens are close to the walls or to the ceiling, the moisture in the air condenses and that increases the dampness.

Quit worrying about being warm, start worrying about the humidity and the dampness of your coop. This time of year, with the shortened days, my birds are spending close to 14 hours on the roost. That is a lot of breathing and pooping which releases moisture into the coop. What the coop needs is not added heat, but open space above the birds that can be vented out so that the moisture leaves the coop. Plenty, as in deep absorbent material that can absorb the moisture of the poop.

They do need to be out of the wind, wind can really steal the heat, so what is needed is a large opening well above their heads. Warm moist air rises and will escape the coop, if there is enough ventilation, which will keep them dry and comfortable.

Dry chickens equal warm chickens...... it is not about the temperature. It is about the humidity. In your scenario, it does not matter about the 35 degrees, you are right, heat is heat, it does not matter where it comes from. If you consider 3 coups, 35 degrees from heat lamp + high humidity, 35 degrees from many chickens + high humidity, both of these coop set ups are considerably less healthy, less comfortable for the birds, than a coup that is 0 degrees but dry.

It is not about heat...... that is the mistake.

Mrs K

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Apples to Oranges......
......chickens aren't humans....and humans don't wear custom grown down coats 24/7.
But every keeper must do what ever makes them feel comfortable in their minds.

Quote:

You have your reasons as to why you don't heat - that's fine - but in my opinion frost bite is painful for ANYTHING to endure - so I do what I can to prevent it from becoming an issue - we all do what we think is best for our girls/roos - no reason to get snotty

I failed to read anything snotty in aart's response. Would you be so kind to point out what you found offensive?
Unless you find it snotty when someone with knowledge of the subject disagrees with your perspective and responds to your position in a concise and succinct manner.

It really is an apples to oranges comparison.

Once homo sapiens left the warmth of the horn of Africa, they adapted to colder climates by fashioning clothing. I couldn't take 40 F for very long if naked but if I dress for the weather, I can survive a long time well below zero.

Chickens, on the other hand, are of the order of birds called galliformes. Further delineated into the family phasianoidea, which includes pheasant, partridge, turkey, quail, peafowl and the ancestor of modern chickens, the jungle fowl. Gallinaceous birds evolved to adapt to climates with cold winters as far back as the Eocene period some 50 million years ago. They do so as weather cools by increasing plumage, lowering their activity levels to conserve energy and modifying their omnivorous diet to a strategy more akin to ruminants.

The name, red jungle fowl, may make one think that they are adapted to a warm climate but their native range extends to more montane regions including the Himalayan foothills. Chickens were domesticated from jungle fowl about 8,000 years ago. Since that time, they've made it to all corners of the globe and have further adapted. Pick a breed that people keep today and a large percentage were developed in temperate regions where winters can be harsh.
Some were developed many centuries ago in places as far flung as Chile, Continental Europe, New England, Canada, Russia and Nordic countries. All are areas with quite cold winters. I'm sure they weren't heating coops in those places in the 1700s. In fact, they may not have had coops at all.

For that matter, how do ptarmigans (same family and known in North America as the 'snow chicken') survive in the arctic tundra with no heat lamps?

Kept more naturally, they are able to adapt as the seasons cool.

Coddled, they'll never be able to acclimate to the winter climate. Kept warm at night and turned out into a cold frigid wind is very stressful. Heaven forbid, one has a power outage.
Frostbite is painful, but well managed birds don't get frostbite.

 

[aart]

All of this information has been so helpful and much appreciated. I thought I would bring my last thought forward, which was initially my first thought as to why I thought to heat the coop to begin with- I bought and read front to back "raising chickens for dummies", which I know was largely written by owner of BYC and it advised keeping the coop above freezing through winter by heating. It also further explained how if the hens environment is below freezing they will stop laying. Any thoughts on that?

Bad advice, no matter who wrote it, and again like already said here on this thread not necessary.
It's not the cold that stops laying in the winter, it's the short days / long nights that fails to trigger a chemical in their brains.

You do need to keep their water liquid, either by heating it somehow or providing it several times a day........and you may need to keep those roof vents clear of snow.

The first winter is hard, mine was last winter- a humdinger in SW Michigan and other places, but once you've been thru one you'll feel better.

 

[aart]

Why I heat – the human body can survive 40 degree temps without going into hyperthermia – but at 39 degrees we will go in to hyperthermia within 24hrs. And we know if we keep our homes at 40 degrees not only is it miserably cold but we will get sick. Most chickens will SURVIVE cold temps just as we can at 40 degrees. When it is miserably cold they can’t get rest because they are constantly shuffling and squirming trying to get warm/comfortable, like we would do. And like us lack of rest weakens the immune system. Then they usually wind up developing respiratory issues/pneumonia – like we would at 40 degrees. Then just like we do when we get sick – they have to have antibiotics.And also if the comb starts getting frost bit – it’s because the system is cutting off the blood supply there, so it can “attend to” more important parts of the body for survival – like our systems do when our fingers and toes start getting frost’ bite. I personally like to go to bed at night knowing my girls are comfortable and not at risk of getting sick. Besides that, there’s usually that “outcast” hen that the others reject and she can’t “cuddle” with anyone to stay warm.
We keep the heat between 35 and 40 degrees. We clean poo out every other day, to keep ammonia/moisture issues under control. And didn’t build the house “air tight” so they would have air circulation even if we need to close vents when it is real windy. We also cover the walls only around the roost with old paneling in winter(we remove it in summer) to prevent “extreme drafts” where they sleep,And we make sure they get lots of scratch feed at night before bed – it has lots of carbs which encourages the system to produce heat. Everyone has their own preferences , this is ours.

Apples to Oranges......
......chickens aren't humans....and humans don't wear custom grown down coats 24/7.
But every keeper must do what ever makes them feel comfortable in their minds.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

So riddle me this, if you have a high chicken to cubic footage ratio in a small coop and their own 'body' heat, heats that small coop at say 35° overnight, what is the difference if you heat a larger coop that isn't as densely populated to 35°?

Chickens did not evolve to live in tiny caves. High stocking density is a problem from a fresh air and pathogen point of view.

Do you monitor the temp in your coop? Is there some hypothetical temperature during the winter where you open more doors and windows because your chickens are giving off 'too much' heat overnight and you dont' want them to get 'stressed' in the morning when the coop is openned?

Or consider this, a chicken gives off about 15W of heat... So riddle me this, what is the amount of heat introduced in a coop containing 10+1 chickens vs a coop containing 1 chicken + a 150W heat source? Please explain the logic that concludes that the 150W of heat given off by the 10 chickens and enjoyed by the +1 chicken in the first coop is somehow different then 150W of heat given off by another heat source and enjoyed by the 1 chicken in the second coop?

To be blunt when you argue black and white logic against heat in a coop you start to dig yourself into a hole of contradictory logic and fact about heating as chickens themselves are factually heating the coop... Depending on chicken density in a coop their own heat could realistically be more heat than an artificial heat source in another coop, and that alone puts a big illogical and contradicting twist on many of the arguments used against heating...
Because, never in nature does the temp drop suddenly from day to day? Can't say what happens in your area but going from say 40° or 50° one day (or even during the day) to freezing temps the next (or night) is far from uncommon where I live, in fact it happens quite regularly this time of year... In fact it happened this last weekend, both days were near 60° during the day and fell to below freezing at night... Same could be said for it going from moderate freezing temps to extreme negatives within hours, again not an uncommon occurrence, it happened several times last year... I know this first hand as I was out there moving snow that had fallen a few hours earlier when it was about 30° all the while within that few hours time it had dropped to -10° with 40MPH winds because a 'polar vortex' plunged into our area...

We have huge temperature swings, but healthy chickens constantly exposed to those swings can handle what comes their way. Fresh air is the largest contributor to health.

I continue to see lots of hyperbole and scare 'what ifs' against heating... And although there might be some factual basis in those claims it's far from the black and white serious threat many would like to claim or believe...

Also there is a world of difference from mildly heating a coop and taking out the nip from the air and heating it to some 'warm' temp, as shown above mild and moderate heat is honestly no different than raising the bird density in many cases...

If one chooses not to heat (or heat) that is certainly your choice to make, but again to be blunt there are pros and cons to both choices and one should make an educated decision weighing in their unique circumstance... The answer is far from black and white even though many insist it is...

In general with healthy, cold hearty breeds, in your backyard coop heating is not advised as the cons generally out weigh the pros, but that is only a generalization there are many instances where that generalization simply does not apply and the pros weigh heavy towards heating...

If you want to heat your coop, I recommend you do so.
In fact, I highly recommend you do so. Stock densely, close off openings and see how healthy your flock is in the long run.

In over 60 years, there has been no coop or hen house heating here, no dense stocking, anywhere from 10 to well over 100 birds. Wide open ventilation and never lost a bird to respiratory disease or freezing to death. The only environmental problem I've lost a bird to was heat.

During the infancy of the commercial poultry market in the early 1900s. Chickens were kept in closed housing during the winters and it was accepted that 40-60% of the birds would be lost. Eventually they considered that the problem was bad air.
One large producer decided to give open sided housing a try. He took one entire wall off of his buildings. During the night snow would drift into the buildings but he never lost a single bird to illness after that.

http://archive.org/stream/openairpoultryho00wood/openairpoultryho00wood_djvu.txt

 

[Ol Grey Mare]

Thank you, thank you! So what kind of temps can I expect these girls to endure? I guess I have far under estimated them. Is there a temperature I should try to be sure to stay above inside the coop? And what about a heat lamp just for night? (Makes a good night light for them)

You don't want/need a "night light" - chickens need those hours of darkness and do not need heat at night any more than they do during the day. I have kept chickens in unwired (thus unheated) coops in temperatures below zero and never had an issue.

 

[donrae]

I'm also a KISS girl.

Humans get clothes and fire.

Animals get dry, draft free housing when they chose to utilize it. They have the choice to go out in the weather whenever they choose. Plenty of good quality feed and water.

This makes it easy for me. Otherwise, where would I stop? The chickens get heat....how about the barn cats? Then what about the horses? Then do I run a light clear out to the pigs? It would be madness

, madness I say!

" Repeat after me.....Us....Them" *




* a free Easter egger cockerel to anyone who knows the movie that's from

 

[JackE]

Do your birds(And your electric bill) a favor, and get rid of those heatlamps. Chickens can handle cold weather. With their feathers, they are perfectly insulated and capable of dealing with what you call cold. And open the vents up. Lack of proper ventilation, is a much bigger problem in the winter, than the cold. You may even have to open one, maybe both, of those windows.
Chickens generate a lot of humidity, just from breathing. And we are not even talking about moisture, and ammonia from their waste. If that moisture is not removed with proper ventilation, the birds can suffer from frostbite, and can even be subject to various respiratory problems. Heatlamps can also prevent your birds from properly acclimatizing to the winter cold. Then, if for some reason, the heat goes away, from either a power loss, or bulb burnout, then your birds WILL suffer. And really all for nothing. Another thing heatlamps are good for is burning coops down. Every winter, we will read again, about somebody burning their coop down, because they were worried that their birds were chilly.
Check out the coop below. It is a proven 100yr old design, that is unheated, and uninsulated. And the whole front wall is open. This is the 5th winter, and I've never lost a chicken to the cold, and none of them has ever suffered from frostbite. Coops like this were in use all the way up into Canada, in -40 temps.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Do your birds(And your electric bill) a favor, and get rid of those heatlamps. Chickens can handle cold weather. With their feathers, they are perfectly insulated and capable of dealing with what you call cold. And open the vents up. Lack of proper ventilation, is a much bigger problem in the winter, than the cold. You may even have to open one, maybe both, of those windows.
Chickens generate a lot of humidity, just from breathing. And we are not even talking about moisture, and ammonia from their waste. If that moisture is not removed with proper ventilation, the birds can suffer from frostbite, and can even be subject to various respiratory problems. Heatlamps can also prevent your birds from properly acclimatizing to the winter cold. Then, if for some reason, the heat goes away, from either a power loss, or bulb burnout, then your birds WILL suffer. And really all for nothing. Another thing heatlamps are good for is burning coops down. Every winter, we will read again, about somebody burning their coop down, because they were worried that their birds were chilly.
Check out the coop below. It is a proven 100yr old design, that is unheated, and uninsulated. And the whole front wall is open. This is the 5th winter, and I've never lost a chicken to the cold, and none of them has ever suffered from frostbite. Coops like this were in use all the way up into Canada, in -40 temps.

I've always admired your coop and have followed that design for a while. I have 3 coops and another complex of 5 breeder units. Most have huge openings but I have a question for you.
I have a building that slopes so the low side is on the north. I built it that way so sunlight can reach the berry patches on the north. I need to rebuild that building. I can't go as tall as yours because of the berries. Do you think, given your experience with that design, that the lower level can be dropped a foot or two and the tall part can be lowered 3 or 4 feet and still function the same?

Thank you, thank you! So what kind of temps can I expect these girls to endure? I guess I have far under estimated them. Is there a temperature I should try to be sure to stay above inside the coop? And what about a heat lamp just for night? (Makes a good night light for them)

-20, no sweat. some people report no problems to -40. It was -19 here last winter and my buildings large openings let the breeze blow right through.
I'm not an adherent of the 'no drafts' philosophy as long as the birds are dry. They can live in trees and I don't know how one keeps a breeze out of a tree.
Just at night would make matters worse.

You don't want/need a "night light" - chickens need those hours of darkness and do not need heat at night any more than they do during the day. I have kept chickens in unwired (thus unheated) coops in temperatures below zero and never had an issue.

X2