The Legbar Thread!

[A6chickenhome]

II started raising chickens in April of this year. For my first hatch, with my first broody hen, I ordered Legbar hatching eggs. Out of 7 eggs, 4 didn't develop at all, 1 died at 10wks and 2 hatched(both roosters). These handsome little roosters are REALLY timid. They also don't seem to have a very strong instinct to follow mama when she calls. She keeps trying to take them out in the yard, calls and calls, but they just want to stay close to the original nest. Today I finally kicked them out and shut the door. When my broody came over for some treats with the flock, the chicks didn't follow her and just stayed by the fence under a dead weed. . Is this normal for this breed?

 

[KPenley]

The behavior? No. Mine come running every time I look out the door never mind walk out LOL. But looks? Yes

Every chicken has it's own personality though

 

[ChicKat]

II started raising chickens in April of this year. For my first hatch, with my first broody hen, I ordered Legbar hatching eggs. Out of 7 eggs, 4 didn't develop at all, 1 died at 10wks and 2 hatched(both roosters)

. These handsome little roosters are REALLY timid. They also don't seem to have a very strong instinct to follow mama when she calls. She keeps trying to take them out in the yard, calls and calls, but they just want to stay close to the original nest. Today I finally kicked them out and shut the door. When my broody came over for some treats with the flock, the chicks didn't follow her and just stayed by the fence under a dead weed.

. Is this normal for this breed?

Interestingly I remember now that my first CLs and some of my later ones DID hang out inside the coop for the longest time. Where I was living then the wind was sometimes horrific - (think wide open prairie with no buildings or anything to block the wind)--- and I thought perhaps like some people they were really sensitive to the wind. My EE wouldn't go inside in the same weather but CLs having been developed in the UK where the weather is milder...maybe the USA is harsh to their tender little ear drums.

That being said -- they were happy because they had this trill or purr that they kept sounding when they were happy and cozy. As adults - they have no more or less inside time than my other chickens......

Regarding those with bad hatch rates and high mortality, I would also be very suspicious of 'inbreeding' -- so many people got CLs that were hatching eggs -- very possibly from the SAME bird and then subsequently bred those together. As someone said - they are rare, and I think that there may be more inbred CLs than people may realize.
Here is something from the Web that may be of interest:

Too much inbreeding leads to inbreeding depression. Basically, this is the opposite of hybrid vigor. Inbred animals are homozygous on too many alleles. They are less healthy and less productive.3 For example, Shoffner (1948, in F. M. Lancaster’s Genetic and Quantitative Aspects of Genealogy) found that, for every 10% increase in the inbreeding coefficient, chickens lost an average of 4.36% in egg hatchability and the capacity to produce 9.26 eggs per year. Even small increases in inbreeding can affect fertility, hatchability, and delay sexual maturation (Sewalem et al. in British Poultry Science, 1999, 40: 203–208).

From “Inbreeding in a Closed Flock” Hays & Talmadge 1948
(Click for link to full-text article)​

Inbreeding has an even heavier impact on the immune system. Because MHC genes are responsible for identifying foreign invaders, we need a variety to catch all of the possible pathogens that can invade a body. Inbreeding reduces the diversity of MHC genes and, thus, directly affects our immune system’s ability to defend the body.4
from the same posting:
In a great post on the Backyard Chickens Forum, Allen W. Miller provided this list of inbreeding coefficients. (You can see the original post which includes great summaries of breeding systems as well.) If the parents aren’t already inbred (having a common ancestor), you can use the coefficients in the chart below.
Here is the link to the article:
http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/gms12-inbreeding-coefficients/
It sounds like a lot of what you are experiencing -- even the possibility of infection/bacteria are possibly due to very closely related genetics.

Bear in mind that most of the people who are raising CLs are not experienced professionals - but back yard beginners.... I would make an effort to reduce the inbreeding coefficient to see if it has an effect on your results. Especially since your other chickens in the same incubator conditions are successful.

Blue Isbars are very inbred. One thing that results from this is that mine, and my friends are very UNIFORM which is a good thing in a line of chickens. We are making HUGE efforts to get Isbars from very different locations, as unrelated to each other as possible and have seen significant impovement in these same attributes (hatch rate and viability of chicks)..but I haven't kept statistics of the results. It is important for the health of the breed to have different genetics. I think that it's possible that there have been a lot of brother & sister pairings in the Legbars since they came to the USA and since they were so rare and expensive. JMO.

One other thing that I think is especially important with this breed is the age of the egg (time since it was layed) when it is set. I would not think an egg older than a week would have the same chance as a fresher egg.

 

[chicken pickin]

My broody had a good hatch rate when hatching CL for me and to top it off they all hatch pullets

And come to think of it I think my lowest hatch rates for my CL were during the hottest months of the year and in a homemade incubator that I was running low humidity. I think Im going to start hatching again in about Feb/March time frame and I will run my humidity higher to see if I get better results.

 

[ochochicas]

Great Info ChicKat. A lot of factors come into play here it looks like.

My rooster is not related to my hens - he came from a different farm. My eggs were not shipped, and they were fresh. I actually incubated some 12 day old Ameraucana eggs when I set the Legbars and all of the Ameraucanas hatched. It sounds like on my next hatch I need to increase my humidity and see if that makes a difference. I am also going to incubate them in cut-out egg cartons so they don't have to be handled at all to turn them. Either that or I'm going to wait for another hen to go broody.

 

[Peep_Show]

Funny you should mention the Legbar low hatch rate. I had shipped eggs, both pure CCL and CCL eggs that were to hatch out Olive Eggers, and -- sad to say -- of the viable eggs not a single OE hatched and only 2 CCL's hatched, one purebred roo and one pullet that is highly questionable to being pure (methinks a RIR hopped the fence as she's decidedly cinnamon color...come to think of it, the egg was rather green in color.) I noticed that the blue eggs were extraordinarily round. All sorts of other crossbred eggs hatched, even the Trader Joe's eggs. Guess my layer coop this year will be RSL's and EE's as the Marans and the Legbars were a bust.

 

[Flaming Chicken]

Thanks KPenley. I didn't realize when I got my legbars that their combs would be so huge. That is really the only thing I don't like about them. Since I live in Washington it rarely gets into the single digits here, but we still do get some cold temps in winter. I wanted more cold hardy breeds and am not sure the legbars are a breed I plan to keep. I'd feel bad if my roosters' combs got frostbite.

I live near Seattle. 2 Winters ago, I had some frostbite on my Cream Legbars and also on my Marans rooster. That was the only time that I have experienced that in the 10 years that we have had chickens.

 

[A6chickenhome]

Interestingly I remember now that my first CLs and some of my later ones DID hang out inside the coop for the longest time. Where I was living then the wind was sometimes horrific - (think wide open prairie with no buildings or anything to block the wind)--- and I thought perhaps like some people they were really sensitive to the wind. My EE wouldn't go inside in the same weather but CLs having been developed in the UK where the weather is milder...maybe the USA is harsh to their tender little ear drums. That being said -- they were happy because they had this trill or purr that they kept sounding when they were happy and cozy. As adults - they have no more or less inside time than my other chickens...... Regarding those with bad hatch rates and high mortality, I would also be very suspicious of 'inbreeding' -- so many people got CLs that were hatching eggs -- very possibly from the SAME bird and then subsequently bred those together. As someone said - they are rare, and I think that there may be more inbred CLs than people may realize. [rule][COLOR=0000FF]Here is something from the Web that may be of interest:[/COLOR]
Too much inbreeding leads to inbreeding depression. Basically, this is the opposite of hybrid vigor . Inbred animals are homozygous on too many alleles. They are less healthy and less productive.3 For example, Shoffner (1948, in F. M. Lancaster’s Genetic and Quantitative Aspects of Genealogy ) found that, for every 10% increase in the inbreeding coefficient, chickens lost an average of 4.36% in egg hatchability and the capacity to produce 9.26 eggs per year. Even small increases in inbreeding can affect fertility, hatchability, and delay sexual maturation (Sewalem et al. in British Poultry Science, 1999, 40: 203–208).

From “Inbreeding in a Closed Flock” Hays & Talmadge 1948 (Click for link to full-text article)​

Inbreeding has an even heavier impact on the immune system. Because MHC genes are responsible for identifying foreign invaders, we need a variety to catch all of the possible pathogens that can invade a body. Inbreeding reduces the diversity of MHC genes and, thus, directly affects our immune system’s ability to defend the body.4
[COLOR=0000FF]from the same posting:[/COLOR]
In a great post on the Backyard Chickens Forum, Allen W. Miller provided this list of inbreeding coefficients. (You can see the original post which includes great summaries of breeding systems as well.) If the parents aren’t already inbred (having a common ancestor), you can use the coefficients in the chart below.
[COLOR=0000FF]Here is the link to the article:[/COLOR]
http://scratchcradle.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/gms12-inbreeding-coefficients/
[rule]It sounds like a lot of what you are experiencing -- even the possibility of infection/bacteria are possibly due to very closely related genetics. Bear in mind that most of the people who are raising CLs are not experienced professionals - but back yard beginners.... I would make an effort to reduce the inbreeding coefficient to see if it has an effect on your results. Especially since your other chickens in the same incubator conditions are successful. Blue Isbars are very inbred. One thing that results from this is that mine, and my friends are very UNIFORM which is a good thing in a line of chickens. We are making HUGE efforts to get Isbars from very different locations, as unrelated to each other as possible and have seen significant impovement in these same attributes (hatch rate and viability of chicks)..but I haven't kept statistics of the results. It is important for the health of the breed to have different genetics. I think that it's possible that there have been a lot of brother & sister pairings in the Legbars since they came to the USA and since they were so rare and expensive. JMO. One other thing that I think is especially important with this breed is the age of the egg (time since it was layed) when it is set. I would not think an egg older than a week would have the same chance as a fresher egg.

Thank you chickat, what a great post. I'm planning on getting my next Legbars from Greenfire Farms. I've been emailing with them about how they manage the inbreeding issue and looks like a good place to get them from. I'm also searching around for other breeders to further diversify the genetics of my flock. Does anyone have any recommendations?

 

[ChicKat]

Hi A6chickenhome,
It is great that GFF will be working with you. Everyone who has CLs in the US basically traces back to them. Every time I have been in contact with Paul Bradshaw or Jenny - I am impressed by Greenfire farms.

One way to insure genetic diversity is to keep good records. Even different people having CLs from GFF could have brothers/sisters -- or maybe more back in the early days. There can only be just so many breeding pairs at any one location. I think that my originals from GFF were not related, because I have had great success from the offspring of that pair. Then I looked around for some that were unlike mine.--for genetic diversity and to work on some of the things that my flock needs improvement in. Here's an example....Both my originals tend to have very upright tails, and the correct tail-angle is 45-degrees from horizontal for the male and even flatter than that for the female....so I saw on Craig's list a pullet with a fairly flat tail and bought her. Together with my rooster her off spring have a lower tail angle....She has traits I don't like -- but thus far - those haven't shown up in the chicks from that pairing (she has a crest that is larger than I like....)

To make a long story short--- if they have a different look - there are probably underlying genetics that are causing it. What is funny too is that She tends to have a non-flopped comb -folded comb is allowed in females if it doesn't block their vision - but an advantage from using her is that my males from her have a bit smaller comb. Partly common sense and partly beginners luck. :O)


Another source of good quality Cream Legbars is the Cream Legbar Club's members list, right on the website. Lots of "full" members have their contact information there, (associate members - no contact information).

Anyone in the CL Club would probably be more than happy to talk about their flock - what are the strong points and what needs work - and what the background of their chickens is and how they maintain diversity.

Now--- that being said -- I am beginning to understand that 'line breeding' is an important way to establish your flock - so careful line breeding is of value --(with the inbreeding coefficient in mind-and the related possible egg reduction and lower hatch rate - as I understand it from the above)--- I have a hen I wish I had a dozen just like her, so I bred her to her son -- and these son/grandson cockerels when they are grown could breed her and the resulting chicks should have 7/8 the same genetics as she has...which is about as close as I will get to having more of her most likely.

HTH -- more than you ever wanted to hear....;O)

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

So far I haven't had any issues hatching my legbars and mine all come from basically 2 pairs (and the leghorn hen for rose combs). I have done lots of line breeding and will continue. My rooster hatched last year is almost perfect. His son was supposed to replace him but so far I am not 100% pleased with him.
I don't think the legbars are in a population bottle neck like some of the other breeds just because there is so much variance like chickat said. Now that I am wanting to add a new rooster to breed in, I am finding that all of the cockerels that appeal to me locally are related to my stock. There are a couple local flocks that just look odd to me so I'll stay away from them. I did see a cockerel on craigslist for sale. He had a small comb, huge crest but also a high tail and small size, plus he was $25.