The Legbar Thread!

[1muttsfan]

Silverfox, one of the concerns here in the US is that there isn't a very large number of birds to work with, and of those birds many do not have the best type. Some of us feel it is more important to try to get a better type bird in these first generations, and work on color later when we have a larger group of birds to work with. This should be relatively easy to do, as many of these gold colored birds very likely carry the cream gene (are heterozygous). It is quite clear to us all that these birds are not all cream.

It is good that we have theories on chick down color and its correlation with adult color. Now if we work together and keep track of the birds from chick through adult, we should have the evidence to prove a theory right. Punnet bred many, many birds to prove his theories.

 

[Habibs Hens]

your understanding on genetics is very limited, and thats why you are not understanding the issue at hand in the USA...

in the USA. there are good colored males and females, but we are also seeing "Dark" Barred males and Darm females hatching and to me knowing whats the issue is the beginning of the solution of the problem. I belive thess birds have "all" it takes to be as good colored as the UK(have seen very good birds in the USA)

that Rich colored male you see in Green Fire Farm is not due to the lack of the cream gene(gold diluter) or due to single barred birds.(single barred wont dilute gold) but due to the fact we are seeing two type of Barring genes, Dark Barring and Light Barring. now if more information is know about these genes, one could breed for light colored chicks and expect better colored males. but color is not everything, Type is about the most important thing in a breed. so I say keep the rich colored birds and breed for type untill further notice

yes im not near clued up in genetics as maybe some of you guys

but the cream legbar was a 20 year long refinement by punnet

and the nature of the breed and the auto sexing ability should be as I have seen here as simple as get a good quality male specimen and a good quality female specimen and due to its years of refinement and breeding true abilities

the offspring should be true and pretty much correct without leakage or decolouration

The only thing I see Is somewhere down the line a glitch in the breed has occurred and its unknown to the breeders

it happened to me once

I brought from the same breeder buff orp eggs and lemon cuckoo eggs

seems his cockerel was playing hookie as my buffs all hatched out as lemons

one issue that could possibly happen and this is only an example im not saying it has happened
it is something that happens in UK

a cotswolt legbar pullet thinking its pure due to is striking resemblance is bred to a pure cream legbar cockerel and the breeder thinks they got true breed cream legbars
but infact they are not

its even possible a Bielefelder was used somewhere as the desired plumage is cream Legbar Plumage on them

I had a hybrid cockerel fathered by a Cream Legbar and mothered by a RSL and only a good keen eye could say it was a hybrid Legabar

Don't get me wrong we all want to learn and refine the breed and as your trying to figure it we all are and only helping each other can achieve that


Think of it like this

3 people walk in at the same time into a Labtynth

one turn left one turn right and one goes straight on
all 3 go through this maze and hit dead ends need to turn back go another way rethink their strategy

and ultimately they all need to get to the centre (and its not a RACE)

would it not have been better for the 3 of them to stick together compare strategies take each other opinions and get the that same goal the centre of the maze in half the time and together

same with breeding

rather than go your own way to get to the same ultimate goal. why not work together to get to that same goal and help on the way
after all the end product needs to be same so why add ingredients in a different order just add them in the same way

 

[racinchickins]

I live in Mooresville, just south of Indy. Pretty much anywhere in Indiana is close enough to drive to pick up. I'd definitely be interested in discussing whatever you have.

 

[tdhenson86]

Here is a cream Legbar picture that I found on a UK site. Looks like what I'm reading in the UK standard.

Is this the color I should breed toward?

 

[nicalandia]

I believe I have finaly found the conection of the different Barring alleles

Acording to the most recent genetic Sequence of the sex linked barring gene.

Sex-linked barring in chickens is controlled by the CDKN2A /B tumour suppressor locus.
Hellström AR, Sundström E, Gunnarsson U, Bed'Hom B, Tixier-Boichard M, Honaker CF, Sahlqvist AS, Jensen P, Kämpe O, Siegel PB, Kerje S, Andersson L.
Pigment Cell Melanoma Res. 2010 Aug;23(4):521-30. doi: 10.1111/j.1755-148X.2010.00700.x. Epub 2010 Mar 29.

full paper
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1755-148X.2010.00700.x/full

from the link " Here, we show that Sex-linked barring is controlled by the CDKN2A/B locus, which encodes the INK4b and ARF transcripts. We identified two non-coding mutations in CDKN2A that showed near complete association with the phenotype. In addition, two missense mutations were identified at highly conserved sites, V9D and R10C, and every bird tested with a confirmed Sex-linked barring phenotype carried one of these missense mutations"

acording to the paper there are 4 Barring gene all of them share the same causative mutation but the B(0/1/2) showed a high degree of haplotype diversity, they were able to distinguish B/B1 , B/B0 , B/B2 and their respective homozygotes(B/B, B0/B0, B1/B1, B2/B2)

Acording to their research

The B1 allele was found in breeds /lines like:
-Barred Plymouth Rock,
-broiler lines,
-Coucou de Rennes,
-Coucou du Vercors.

The B2 allele was found in breeds / lines like:
-White Leghorn, commercial
-White Leghorn, line 13
-White Leghorn, Obese strain
-Järhöns


keeping this info in mind, White Leghorn and Jaerhon(dark Jaerhon male chicks are not pale). have the same B2 Barring gene. and acording to history In 1939 Michael S. Pease was trying to improve the productivity of the Gold Legbar by crossing it with high laying White Leghorn(B2 barring gene) so by adding the productive nature of the white leghorn Mr. Pease may have infact introduced the B2 gene



dark Jaerhon male chicks are not as diluted as normal B/B male chicks

Chick pictures
The chicks on the left are the dark variety and on the chicks on right are the light variety. On both pairs of chicks the male chicks are at the top.

 

[nicalandia]

Here is a cream Legbar picture that I found on a UK site. Looks like what I'm reading in the UK standard.



Is this the color I should breed toward?

not really, the female in the drawing has a well defined barring pattern which is not correct

 

[KPenley]

Here is a cream Legbar picture that I found on a UK site. Looks like what I'm reading in the UK standard.



Is this the color I should breed toward?

This is a beautiful artistic example, though I think a few qualifications are worth mentioning.
First, is it just the yellow background or are the legs looking willow? They are definitely supposed to be yellow.
The male is very close, but appears to be barred with black instead of grey, so it seems a little dark. Most of our SOP calls for silver grey (body, fluff), grey and dark grey in the male. So just imagine this boy lighter.
The female is too dark as well as too definitively barred. Again our SOP calls for silver grey body fluff, and gentle shades of gray barring on the female. In some areas the barring is so wide and soft that you can't even see it from a few feet away. Up close though, you can see the barring in the feathers.
It is also valuable to note that "Cream" has a range from pale yellow to silver.

 

[GaryDean26]

I believe I have finaly found the conection of the different Barring alleles

Wow...it took a lot of work to get to the bottom of this one. Nice work!

I know this isn't a Jearhon Thread or Genetics Thread, but out of clarification, the Dark Jearhon variety has the B2 barring of white Leghorns and and the Light Jearhon has the B1 barring of the found in Plymouth Rocks?

Likewise the barring producing the light cockerels is the B1 barring and the barring producing the bark cockerels the B2 barring?

 

[lonnyandrinda]

So now the real question: can we get proper coloring out of both barring genes?

 

[CibolaChooks]

I bow to your considerable years of experience in chickens. I am not here to debate on things I am rocky on at best.
Debates are things which do Not necessarily increase knowledge as we well know . In most cases debates tend to be destructive and a tool that a lot of people use to simply bash others.