The Legbar Thread!

[blackbirds13]

We don't have to make a decision tonight folks!!!!

It's great to have these discussions- but as it has also been mentioned we need more than anything TIME working with these birds to see what the genetics hide- as we have been all combining the different GFF lines and EVERYTHING under the sun is popping up. Color should be the LAST of our worries- type and shape first!!! In the meantime, breed for whatever color suits your fancy- no one is stopping you.

I will say that the club will PROBABLY lean towards whatever Punnett and Pease intended with the breed and will be sticking to their description- which includes neither the silvery white favored in the UK nor the flamboyant reds we see often in the US. A standard is just that- something to strive for, not something that fits every bird. We can't have a standard that includes it all. BUT for now can we just focus that we all love this breed and want to work on it? Sometimes it feels like we can't see the forest for the trees on this thread!

It's amazing how much discussion has gone on the last few days- I can barely keep up with everything going on with my life right now. Discussion is great!!! But let's respect each other's right to their own opinions!

I whole heatedly agree. I think a lot of the conjecture here is because of a lack of information from actually breeding the birds and seeing what pops up as you go.
I don't know why it seems to me that folks keep engendering that the birds we have over here are some sort of different version or variety from the British birds, they do have birds that look like these, they are just considered non-standard when it comes to the gold.

Or why there is such great dislike for the birds that appear more silver. Perhaps when they see them in person they may have a different opinion. I’d like to see that for myself before I decide that based on a photograph.

I think until folks breed a few generations and see what they get from their own flock and have some real time invested in trying to achieve a consistent flock I take what they all say with a serious grain of salt. I don’t deny anyone their opinion but unless it comes informed it is just conjecture. They may not like the silver birds but they'll probably hatch a few if they intend to get anywhere near cream. They may not like the gray barring but they'll hatch some of those too. And I’m willing to guess that when they do that they probably will seriously consider keeping them….. There will be a lot of decisions they will have to make from what they will see in front of them. I wish I could keep a whole range of boys as there is so many little tiny variations in what I see that it makes the whole “I like the (insert personally preferred aspect here) more than (insert aspect they see in someone else’s bird) sometimes laughable. The color WILL dissipate as they go forward if they indeed intend to breed a cream colored bird. And the bird that goes to the APA will need to align to the SOP and will need to be cream. I am a member of the Club also and I don't intend to vote for a version that steers too far away from the British standard so we all need to be a bit patient and maybe turn the discussion to what we are seeing as we breed as opposed to the dream version of the bird one thinks they'll have for submission when the time comes, and I include myself in that comment. Next year some of what I hatch will be my F3 birds (F4 if I’d not lost my first set of spring chicks) and I look forward to it with excitement and also concern as I know the Rees birds will hit the market and that will have an effect on what we all do and what the eventual Cream Legbar will be. I am willing to bet that a lot of folks will want a bird that they believe to harken back to what the originating country sees as correct in form and feather. I have 5 gold females, my original GFF bird, her daughter and then daughters from them both. I have my B line female, her daughters and then daughters from them both and I have my 2013 GFF females and daughters from one of them. The Gold girls are quite pretty birds but no they are not the standard in my mind but I will probably still see what they throw next year. The point I’m trying to make is to hatch and breed forward, see what you get, share it if you wish but rather than make the SOP fit what you have on hand now why not see where we are in a few years and see what the consensus is then. I wonder how many with the more golden birds would rebuy the same stock if they were to lose all they had on hand. I faced that daunting prospect earlier this year and I have to admit my mind set was that I’d try for the best available and no, they would not have been the more golden form of the bird.
And color is not all there is to this bird and having cream birds (or gold birds) is not an end game. I’m struggling with issues of color over form, form over color, what flaw to live with regarding color, what flaw to live with regarding form. My favorite boy will probably have a crooked comb so I’ll have to pair him up with one that has a straight comb but I also have my eye on one that looks promising but he has no crest. I’m not going to show my birds anytime soon so do I need to have all my birds conform to each part of the SOP? No so I’ll probably be breeding flaws out for quite a while. My only real accomplishment thus far is that my breeding flock will be all cream when I settle down this winter and now I have to take the discussion on the saddle into account with what I see and have on hand. I just need to cull through those boys as I have all my females on hand.
ETA - I typed this up in Word and then cut and paste... weird white areas are showing up. But gotta go back now and read all the posts I missed. Busy morning.

 

[CibolaChooks]

this will be my last post or opinions i make about color i hope this is a cream legbar description So i dont feel we need any discussion on the Cream legbar thread if thats what people want to breed towards.

"An interesting new autosexing variety is the Cream Legbar. The cream colour is indistinguishable to the eye from silver; but cream is, for reasons given on page 2, none the less a form of gold. It may be thought of as an extremely diluted gold. The Cream Legbar has a crest, which distinguishes it readily from the Silver Legbar. It has proved to be a prolific layer; its most striking peculiarity is that it lays blue eggs. The sex-distinction in the downs is the same as that in the Gold Legbar (Plate 11c)."
(Pease, Michael M.A., Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Bulletin No. 38, Sex-Linkage in Poultry Breeding, Other Varieties, page 8)

All this color talk has hijacked all the threads. I think that we need to leave these type of discussions on the working group pages. Also we should leave the legbar thread non controversial and fun loving type of share anything thread.

Maybe we can have a Poll on who the people are who like color and threw Pm s and what not you guys can decide if you would rather go a diffrent route.Set up a Working group thread for the new Version of legbar and start working on it where it doesnt stir up the pot. Also start on your own SOP for it.

I really dont mind seeing the color discussion on the Working group thread thats where debates belong and this is where i could have been more clear with my thoughts. When the working groups starts heating up on something that bothers me or doesn't interest me i stick to the cream thread and Legbar thread for a while then come back and see where the dust has settled. I think i feel the same as HaplessRunner i wish people would just make up there mind and move on with it. I really wish the color people would just decide what to do and how to do it and start a new working group thread.

I know color will still be discussed on the Cream legbar working group page and the Cream legbar page because the people who love the original breeders version and the original Sop version will still need to talk about it to further refine a breed we love. But mixing the two camps and trying to have a tug o war about color just isn't helpful or what this breed needs. there are so many types of legbar i dont see why people who like color cant just start another.

Also the people who are on the fence and like both colors or dont know which way they want to go can read both working groups threads and understand the challenges of both colors the new version and the original cream version. it would be helpful to all breeders and people will have the option of helping with both types. This would really help the breed and both versions move forward rather than be a tug-o-war

 

[nicalandia]

back to the whole Cream colored birds?.... I understand that you guys think that cream should not be silver and thats correct on Cream Light Brown Leghrons, just look at them they look nice right? well the double effect of Barring does infact Dilutes it to an almost Silver color and in some birds lacking any type of red enhancers the bird may actually look all silver grey barred... I know the Dutch bantams dont have much to do with legbars, but they are just like light brown leghorns(when not re enhanced)
Quote:
this birds belong to my dear friend Henk, the birds is double barring and you can see how it dilutes the gold tone to a cream like tone. I would guess that if this bird had cream on it, it would be near silver if not plain old silver

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
how this goes unnoticed by CCL on here is Beyond me..

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:
This has been posted before I'm sure. I've read it a quite few times.... but it could be that I do re-read the papers and genetic stuff I collect . The discussion on color is continuous and cyclical. It seems to flair up in spurts in the fall or in late spring as folks acquire chicks or eggs and start to see what they have on hand.

 

[blackbirds13]

"An interesting new autosexing variety is the Cream Legbar. The cream colour is indistinguishable to the eye from silver; but cream is, for reasons given on page 2, none the less a form of gold. It may be thought of as an extremely diluted gold. The Cream Legbar has a crest, which distinguishes it readily from the Silver Legbar. It has proved to be a prolific layer; its most striking peculiarity is that it lays blue eggs. The sex-distinction in the downs is the same as that in the Gold Legbar (Plate 11c)."
(Pease, Michael M.A., Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, Bulletin No. 38, Sex-Linkage in Poultry Breeding, Other Varieties, page 8)


I know color will still be discussed on the Cream legbar working group page and the Cream legbar page because the people who love the original breeders version and the original Sop version will still need to talk about it to further refine a breed we love. But mixing the two camps and trying to have a tug o war about color just isn't helpful or what this breed needs. there are so many types of legbar i dont see why people who like color cant just start another.

this seems like a good idea since The Legbar Thread seems to get a bit contentious maybe having a Cream and Gold thread would mediate that a bit. It would be like the Marans threads.. I love that they have a Black, a Marans, a Blue/splash, a Wheaten....etc.

 

[dretd]

Quote: Such words of wisdom from you ladies! I especially like the point you have made, Maria, about the SOP and how we need to try to breed towards it. This is something that some of the APA judges have cautioned us about in the past.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks for posting Steen, that is the first time I have ever seen that quote. What? Have I been asleep at the threads? LOL

nicalandia - love that you posted Henk's bird... I have the greatest admiration for Henk

Maria, Now that I am thinking that the birds I prefer to raise are not Cream Legbars (aka don't appear silver) it is very freeing, and yes, I would re-buy a more colorful bird if my entire flock were wiped out. Your idea to breed forward and see what happens has some merit, however, in business, we were taught that if the person doing the work doesn't have a clear idea of their goal it is like trying to bowl with a curtain between you and the pins (maybe Tom Petersen said that in In Search of Excellence) For some of us it is important to have the clear goal in sight.

Perhaps KPenley was right that what a lot of us favor is the gold-colored Legbar, however it isn't the gold legbar because it is crested and lays a blue egg. Here is a quote from Punnett:

In this genetics article
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf

"The cock on the other hand is a strikingly handsome bird. As text figure 1 shows he is barred all over though the general effect is definitely lighter and softer than a barred breed such as the Plymouth Rock. At the same time the pale gold of the hackles and the bright chestnut of the wing coverts lead to his presenting an appearance at once brilliant and quite unlike that of any recognized breed" Punnett 1940

I remember way back when, some of us thought that Punnett was referring to Cream Legbars, and needed to be corrected to know that was gold legbars. Perhaps this really is an opportunity to recognize a new breed. If Cream Looks silver and the UK Legbars recognize gold and silver, and cream is crested silver looking, then this new, as yet unrecognized breed would be crested gold looking. So much confusion would end.

Had not the prior discussions gone on, then this point would never have been reached. As far as wait-and-see, we have kind of been doing that for a year or so. If it is indisputable that cream looks silver, then there is certainly room for another Legbar that Maria says in the UK's version of not up to standard Cream - as the early genetic experiments discarded silver legbars while they were developing gold, only to go back later and recognize them. At that time the silvers were 'not up to standard gold'.

I keep seeing this as a tremendous opportunity. There needn't be any contention between the two pathways IMO. some people like black coffee and some like coffee with cream and sugar - does one group try to reform the other? (maybe if they have no cream and sugar).

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Henk and I are buddies....

 

[nicalandia]

[COLOR=333333]I remember way back when, some of us thought that Punnett was referring to Cream Legbars, and needed to be corrected to know that was gold legbars.  Perhaps this really is an opportunity to recognize a new breed.  If Cream Looks silver and the UK Legbars recognize gold and silver, and cream is crested silver looking, then this new, as yet unrecognized breed would be crested gold looking.  So much confusion would end.  [/COLOR]

I agree with you