The Legbar Thread!

[chicken pickin]

What do you suppose the value or benefit of creaming, or silvering, the gold CLB was and is? Particularly if the earlier CLB was laying the size and color of blue egg desired. Not having researched the details of it's genesis, I'd surmise that the earlier eggs was too olive. But, rather than trying to cream an olive egg, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to start afresh with blue gene on white, and cosmetically tweak the appearance from there? There is something counter intuitive about all of this...

I may not be understanding your statement so I apologize if this is not what you are looking for

The Cream Legbar variety lays blue eggs where as the Gold and Silver Legbars lay I think white or cream eggs. The varieties are different as are the egg colors. Someone please correct me if I am incorrect.

I have this standard that I have saved in my favorites and it gives a better description
http://s22.postimg.org/a50mu4qe9/online_standard.gif

 

[HaHaUthinkso]

Hi

I will check out the standards for you although I can say with much certainty there will be little difference

On the " draft SOP that you feel is not correct " my answer must be nothing as yet I just five minutes ago glanced at it.


The reasoning for my posts was simply to point out and refresh that ALL legbars cream, gold, silver are all barred leghorns and therefore should display the Leghorn type.

Punnett set out to make a barred leghorn and that is exactly what he did. The silvers and golds came from the same lines and the golds went on to have the cream gene added.

The Rock was a one use bird for the barred gene never again introduced. 1st generation of rock, minimum 5 generations of Leghorn to get to the golds and silver...............the rock imho should be disregarded and continued reference to it having an influence on the Legbars will encourage playing with matings and the loss of what you have.


This may clarify what I am trying to say

 

[nicalandia]

What do you suppose the value or benefit of creaming, or silvering, the gold CLB was and is? Particularly if the earlier CLB was laying the size and color of blue egg desired. Not having researched the details of it's genesis, I'd surmise that the earlier eggs was too olive. But, rather than trying to cream an olive egg, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to start afresh with blue gene on white, and cosmetically tweak the appearance from there? There is something counter intuitive about all of this...

This makes no sense, rephrase your question and I gladly answer it genetically

 

[HaHaUthinkso]

What do you suppose the value or benefit of creaming, or silvering, the gold CLB was and is? Particularly if the earlier CLB was laying the size and color of blue egg desired. Not having researched the details of it's genesis, I'd surmise that the earlier eggs was too olive. But, rather than trying to cream an olive egg, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to start afresh with blue gene on white, and cosmetically tweak the appearance from there? There is something counter intuitive about all of this...

No value whatsoever.

The challenge was to create a single breed which would produce sexable chicks at hatch.

Following several crosses with other breeds the Gold Legbar was created. Basically Brown Leghorn with a barring gene added from the Barred Plymouth Rock - adults have gold hackles - Chicks hatched males being lighter than females.

The silver was created using a silver male from the above mating and a brown leghorn female - the adult bird colour was silver - the chicks followed same rules.

The cream was an offshoot from the above experiment, The gold legbar was crossed with another bird carrying a cream gene, this diluted the gold colour of the adult birds to a creamier colour. With this cross came a tuft on the head and a blue egg - the chicks followed the same rules.


Basically Gold, Silver, Cream are all models of the same car.....


Hope this helps you a little

 

[ChicKat]

What do you suppose the value or benefit of creaming, or silvering, the gold CLB was and is? Particularly if the earlier CLB was laying the size and color of blue egg desired. Not having researched the details of it's genesis, I'd surmise that the earlier eggs was too olive. But, rather than trying to cream an olive egg, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to start afresh with blue gene on white, and cosmetically tweak the appearance from there? There is something counter intuitive about all of this...

Hi vlhavens,

Welcome to BYC forum and welcome to the Legbars....

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to by the creaming or silvering of the gold-CLB. But you may be into something about the breed that a large number of people find very controversial.

First the eggs-- which have nothing to do with the plumage.... Because Prof. Punnett was a geneticist - he referenced 'blue eggs' - which to us means eggs that are colored - blue--> To him -- reading in subsequent writings, he seems to have meant the blue egg gene, which depending upon the other egg genetica at work in a particular hen could produce a blue, a green or even an olive egg. He seems to have lumped them together - because the blue egg gene must be present for any of those. -- In the USA - there were no Cream Legbars reported that produced olive eggs. To ge a cream Legbar that produced olive eggs in the USA would have required an outcross to a breed that had brown eggs -- and this would certainly not be something desirable, in the perspective of most people who raise CLs. For this reason, only blue and green eggs are written into the USA SOP as it stands now.

Regarding the color--- I interpret what you are saying is the removal of all color from the plumage of the male- and then saying - this is the true Cream and everything else isn't a Cream Legbar... one of my pet peeves because people saying this have not seen the genetics of the bird that they are calling 'gold'.

If there were to be a gold legbar, which there isn't to our knowledge - with the exeption of some people particularly in Australia - trying to recreate gold legbar-coloration as projets, it wold have plumage like this gold crele Leghorn:

You will notice particularly the deep saturation, no light coloration on the neck hackles and the gold wing triangle. In chicken-color-talk - gold is what we wold normally call brown. I have never seen a Cream Legbar that looks like this - Especially not with the gold wing tip.

This type of Cream Legbar:

seems to be what a lot of people are calling a 'gold' legbar -- I guess they don't see the neck hackles as different. Hence, a LOT of confusion - since a large number of people see this as a Cream Legbar.
:O)

Is this rooster's wing triangle the brown? maybe it is - and thus maybe he is gold.... but that wouldn't quite account for the difference in the neck hackles, and -- The argument that barring lightens the gold to white once combined with the gold-dilution gene would apply to the image above of the Gold Crele Leghorn - since that breed has barring.

Here is another example of a Cream Legbar from the same Poultry show--- this second example may have a more desirable plumage tint:

And yet, I believe that some would also say that is a 'gold' Cream Legbar and thus not a Cream Legbar.

Have I confused you? ;O)

For some people the Cream Legbar has't changed at all; but the interpretation of the color Cream - has changed - does it mean the cream gene? Does it mean the appearance of Cream? Does it mean a diluted gold? or does it mean invisible gold - since Gold is the basis of the coloration of the Cream Legbar.............

 

[ChicKat]

These may interest you :



Silver Legbar Male 1954 British Standards


In both cases the standard states " Legs Moderately Long " Weights are the same.

The Andalusian standard of that year states " Legs Long "


May also be worth noting the colour of the wing / shoulder (interesting ?)

Thanks!! nice profiles of the cockerels. It does look like there is definite darkening on the wings.

 

[ChicKat]

Hi

I will check out the standards for you although I can say with much certainty there will be little difference

On the " draft SOP that you feel is not correct " my answer must be nothing as yet I just five minutes ago glanced at it.


The reasoning for my posts was simply to point out and refresh that ALL legbars cream, gold, silver are all barred leghorns and therefore should display the Leghorn type.

Punnett set out to make a barred leghorn and that is exactly what he did. The silvers and golds came from the same lines and the golds went on to have the cream gene added.

The Rock was a one use bird for the barred gene never again introduced. 1st generation of rock, minimum 5 generations of Leghorn to get to the golds and silver...............the rock imho should be disregarded and continued reference to it having an influence on the Legbars will encourage playing with matings and the loss of what you have.


This may clarify what I am trying to say

What a good reminder! And a well bred Leghorn is a beautiful example of a chicken.

 

[nicalandia]

The cream was an offshoot from the above experiment, The gold legbar was crossed with another bird carrying a cream gene, this diluted the gold colour of the adult birds to a creamier colour. With this cross came a tuft on the head and a blue egg - the chicks followed the same rules.


Basically Gold, Silver, Cream are all models of the same car.....


Hope this helps you a little

this is an Over simplification, but gets the idea understood, and what they have on head is not a tuff, its a crest, from the Chilean stock Punnett used on this project,



I have always asked myself as to why Barred rocks were used in this cross? I mean the Crele, Cuckoo and Barred Leghorn Variety were created long before the "Autosexing" Leghorn was "Invented" by these scientist, a Brown Danish x Barred leghorn cross would have arrived to the same "Autosexing" Leghorn in the UK, its like Reinventing the leghorn

 

[dretd]

What do you suppose the value or benefit of creaming, or silvering, the gold CLB was and is? Particularly if the earlier CLB was laying the size and color of blue egg desired. Not having researched the details of it's genesis, I'd surmise that the earlier eggs was too olive. But, rather than trying to cream an olive egg, wouldn't it have made so much more sense to start afresh with blue gene on white, and cosmetically tweak the appearance from there? There is something counter intuitive about all of this...

Hi vlhavens


Gosh this is such a long and complicated path to the current Cream Legbar. In a nutshell, the Gold and Silver Legbars lay white eggs, not blue. The Cream variety of the breed Legbar is the only one to lay blue (or green) eggs and as I understand it the olive color was added later to the standard and was not in the original (but I could be wrong about this)/

The originators of the breed, Punnett and Pease, were geneticists with an interest in poultry. They discovered during the course of their experimentations that some of the gold birds were diluted out to a cream color similar to silver but that it was a recessive trait not a dominant one like silver. I can only surmise that the scientists enjoyed working with and enjoyed seeing how different genes were expressed in their flock and sometimes a breed would come about from the experimentation. Do remember that all of this experimentation took place prior to not only genetic testing that is commonplace these days, but before Watson and Crick (and their 'assistant' Rosalind Franklin who was not credited) discovered the Double Helix structure in 1953.

The Cream gene is really called inhibitor of gold (ig) and two copies are necessary for it to be expressed. The blue egg gene (O) is a different gene all together. I am not aware of any influence of one on the other's expression (called epistasis).

 

[HaHaUthinkso]

this is an Over simplification, but gets the idea understood, and what they have on head is not a tuff, its a crest, from the Chilean stock Punnett used on this project,



I have always asked myself as to why Barred rocks were used in this cross? I mean the Crele, Cuckoo and Barred Leghorn Variety were created long before the "Autosexing" Leghorn was "Invented" by these scientist, a Brown Danish x Barred leghorn cross would have arrived to the same "Autosexing" Leghorn in the UK, its like Reinventing the leghorn

Well of course ...................



Sorry dretd When I mentioned the wing / shoulder I was referring to it being darker on the image. This is I think the best image of a Legbar I have come across and it might raise the question.

If the silver in the image has this dark area what of the idea that the CLB which is based on gold should be very light ???