To Worm or Not? And, Piperazine dosage for bantams?

[threehorses]

Sorry, I just got this update today.

On Worms, humans are not likely to get them from eggs because of cooking and because it's just not the usual method. But it's not unheard of to find worms in the eggs. (That's why I keep up with my worming program, even if it isn't the most natural method).

And on the wormer, the ivermectin pour-on, i mistyped the strength. It's "ivermectin" (not moxidectrin or eprinomectin) as the active ingredient, and it's cattle pour-on - a blue liquid. They only make one strength. Not the injectable (clear liquid). If you use the paste wormer (a bb to pencil eraser sized bit in the beak) it's all the same strength too for horses. If you can, get the combination "ivermection" with "pyrantal" in it - for tapeworm control.

 

[sonew123]

Quote:
ok so we cant eat the eggs but we can feed them cooked to our birds right?
Also I found the Pour-on Ivermectin-and we use 5 -6 drops for large birds and 2-3 drops per little bantam sized birds?
Find the baldest section on the back of the necks/shoulder blades and make sure it goes on the skin avoiding the feathers?

 

[shelleyd2008]

Quote:
So the ivermectin with pyrantal is effective on tapeworms? I noticed some droppings the other day that had mucous in them. Did a net search, and most things say this is a sign of tapeworms. Most all of the birds are molting right now, so the fenbendazole is out, right?
We seem to have a huge infestation of worms here this year, hopefully I can get it under control.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
So the ivermectin with pyrantal is effective on tapeworms? I noticed some droppings the other day that had mucous in them. Did a net search, and most things say this is a sign of tapeworms. Most all of the birds are molting right now, so the fenbendazole is out, right?
We seem to have a huge infestation of worms here this year, hopefully I can get it under control.

Ivermectin is not effective on tapeworms. The pyrantels are the more effective meds - BUT that being said, I think it's important that we all understand the difference of tapeworms.

NOthing is going to be effective on tapeworms. Period. There are worming medications that are specifically for tapeworms, but tapeworms are historically notorious for being difficult to kill. The reason is their design - sneaky little smart things that they are. They attach themselves to the digestive tract lining in a way that makes it difficult to kill the primary section. Then their length is made up of dozens or even hundreds of segments. Each individual segment is a functioning reproductive center that, when it breaks off, can leave the animal, dry up, and still be functional. Another animal ingests is and voila - they're infected with a reproductive center capable of replicating.

But pyrantel products are the best we have right now. Otherwise we don't encourage extra earthworms and bugs. If the birds find some, fine - but don't dig them out for them. If you want to feed bug proteins, feed mealyworms as they're farmed. They're also apparently quite easy to raise!

As for mucus, no - mucus is not a sign of worms. Mucus is a sign of intestinal inflammation and mucus secretion which can be from a hundred different things. Other than getting a "fecal egg count" (FEC) from your vet (not a fecal exam - but an actual egg count), there's no true way of diagnosing OR ruling out worms. Visual examinations don't work. They may point towards a parasite problem that needs to be ruled out, but they don't diagnose, and a lack of worms in the droppings never ever mean the bird's free from them.

Nothing like making things harder for you, huh?

Sorry, but I want you to be well armed with the right information.

So - the mucus. This means almost certainly that the bacteria in the gut are out of balance because of the changed environmental condition of the gut. The good bacteria and yeasts, the ones that digest our chickens' food and create enzymes and vitamins that nourish our birds, they don't like a lot of changes in their real estate. They like a consistent diet, a certain pH, little to no stress please, and they like prebiotics (fibers). Change any of the above, and they get "out of whack" and either don't continue to colonize to replace the ones that naturally die off, or they die off because of an inability to live in the new circumstances. Either way, this leaves the bird vulnerable to many things - including other bacteria, fungi, indigested food (because that's the bacterial job - to break down fibers that are otherwise indigestible) rotting in the gut, etc.

I would first suggest a good probiotic - either yogurt with live bacteria (plain, please), or acidophilus capsule contents (or tablets, crushed), or a powder from the feedstore with LIVE bacteria like Probios. To make sure there's live bacteria, check the following:

Human products: Look for "live cultures" on the label - they should list the types. Acidophilus. A. lactobacilli, Bifidobacteriaum, etc. Or yeasts. Lean towards bacteria (the former) though good yeasts (the latter) help.

Animal products: Look for "CFU" followed by a number on the label. That stands for Colony Forming Units and indicates that there are live bacteria ready and willing to set up house in your bird's gut.

I'd start with that - and see if that clears up the droppings. Check the feed and make sure it's fresh and appropriate. that means 95% of it is a completely fortified pellet or crumble, the rest being grains, treats, etc. Make sure it's within a month old, smells fresh, is in good condition and stored out of any moisture in a cool airtight lightproof container. Make sure there is no "biofilm" (slime, even clear slime) in the waterers and that their water is good and fresh and free from additives (except possibly some organic Apple Cider vinegar, at a rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon, to help correct the pH that we talked about above).

Then make sure there's not mildew, compost piles, decaying vegetation, much mud, etc that they can get into.

If you haven't wormed your birds in over 6 months, do so - but use Wazine first for safety and then in 2-4 weeks follow up with a broad-spectrum like the ivermectin/pyrantel mixture.
Also check for parasites (mites/lice) as they can cause all sorts of issues. Always rule them out any time there's any stress or illness in a bird. You'd be surprised how often parasites preceed disease.
Check their weight - by feel. Do their keels feel weighty, meaty, skinny, boney, sharp?

Honestly in your case, I'd say that it's more likely the molt than worms. Mine always get more mucousy droppings because of the bacterial changes I stated above. In a molt, I like to give polyvisol once a week (because of the oil/liquid presentation which is far more effective than water-supplement vitamins for the important vitamins), yogurt once a week (more if there are loose droppings), and make sure that my protein levels are good and high. I use gamebird layer/breeder for my laying birds at that time for its 20% protein. Other times I might use a 16 - 18% protein.

On the worm infestation, remind me what you did? I can help you get it under control as I live in the land o' worms! (Texas). There are additional things that can be done to make the fight way less difficult and I'd love to help!

p.s. And yes - fenbendazole apparently can cause feather development abnormalities when used during molt. I think I'd wait til after they're done with molt, before they lay, and hit them with the wormer. Though you could use wazine now - might be a good idea - no eggs to toss, and then hit them with ivermectin/pyrantel after their molt is nearly done before laying. Perfect timing!

 

[shelleyd2008]

Quote:
So the ivermectin with pyrantal is effective on tapeworms? I noticed some droppings the other day that had mucous in them. Did a net search, and most things say this is a sign of tapeworms. Most all of the birds are molting right now, so the fenbendazole is out, right?
We seem to have a huge infestation of worms here this year, hopefully I can get it under control.

Ivermectin is not effective on tapeworms. The pyrantels are the more effective meds - BUT that being said, I think it's important that we all understand the difference of tapeworms.

NOthing is going to be effective on tapeworms. Period. There are worming medications that are specifically for tapeworms, but tapeworms are historically notorious for being difficult to kill. The reason is their design - sneaky little smart things that they are. They attach themselves to the digestive tract lining in a way that makes it difficult to kill the primary section. Then their length is made up of dozens or even hundreds of segments. Each individual segment is a functioning reproductive center that, when it breaks off, can leave the animal, dry up, and still be functional. Another animal ingests is and voila - they're infected with a reproductive center capable of replicating.

But pyrantel products are the best we have right now. Otherwise we don't encourage extra earthworms and bugs. If the birds find some, fine - but don't dig them out for them. If you want to feed bug proteins, feed mealyworms as they're farmed. They're also apparently quite easy to raise!

As for mucus, no - mucus is not a sign of worms. Mucus is a sign of intestinal inflammation and mucus secretion which can be from a hundred different things. Other than getting a "fecal egg count" (FEC) from your vet (not a fecal exam - but an actual egg count), there's no true way of diagnosing OR ruling out worms. Visual examinations don't work. They may point towards a parasite problem that needs to be ruled out, but they don't diagnose, and a lack of worms in the droppings never ever mean the bird's free from them.

Nothing like making things harder for you, huh?

Sorry, but I want you to be well armed with the right information.

So - the mucus. This means almost certainly that the bacteria in the gut are out of balance because of the changed environmental condition of the gut. The good bacteria and yeasts, the ones that digest our chickens' food and create enzymes and vitamins that nourish our birds, they don't like a lot of changes in their real estate. They like a consistent diet, a certain pH, little to no stress please, and they like prebiotics (fibers). Change any of the above, and they get "out of whack" and either don't continue to colonize to replace the ones that naturally die off, or they die off because of an inability to live in the new circumstances. Either way, this leaves the bird vulnerable to many things - including other bacteria, fungi, indigested food (because that's the bacterial job - to break down fibers that are otherwise indigestible) rotting in the gut, etc.

I would first suggest a good probiotic - either yogurt with live bacteria (plain, please), or acidophilus capsule contents (or tablets, crushed), or a powder from the feedstore with LIVE bacteria like Probios. To make sure there's live bacteria, check the following:

Human products: Look for "live cultures" on the label - they should list the types. Acidophilus. A. lactobacilli, Bifidobacteriaum, etc. Or yeasts. Lean towards bacteria (the former) though good yeasts (the latter) help.

Animal products: Look for "CFU" followed by a number on the label. That stands for Colony Forming Units and indicates that there are live bacteria ready and willing to set up house in your bird's gut.

I'd start with that - and see if that clears up the droppings. Check the feed and make sure it's fresh and appropriate. that means 95% of it is a completely fortified pellet or crumble, the rest being grains, treats, etc. Make sure it's within a month old, smells fresh, is in good condition and stored out of any moisture in a cool airtight lightproof container. Make sure there is no "biofilm" (slime, even clear slime) in the waterers and that their water is good and fresh and free from additives (except possibly some organic Apple Cider vinegar, at a rate of 2 tablespoons per gallon, to help correct the pH that we talked about above).

Then make sure there's not mildew, compost piles, decaying vegetation, much mud, etc that they can get into.

If you haven't wormed your birds in over 6 months, do so - but use Wazine first for safety and then in 2-4 weeks follow up with a broad-spectrum like the ivermectin/pyrantel mixture.
Also check for parasites (mites/lice) as they can cause all sorts of issues. Always rule them out any time there's any stress or illness in a bird. You'd be surprised how often parasites preceed disease.
Check their weight - by feel. Do their keels feel weighty, meaty, skinny, boney, sharp?

Honestly in your case, I'd say that it's more likely the molt than worms. Mine always get more mucousy droppings because of the bacterial changes I stated above. In a molt, I like to give polyvisol once a week (because of the oil/liquid presentation which is far more effective than water-supplement vitamins for the important vitamins), yogurt once a week (more if there are loose droppings), and make sure that my protein levels are good and high. I use gamebird layer/breeder for my laying birds at that time for its 20% protein. Other times I might use a 16 - 18% protein.

On the worm infestation, remind me what you did? I can help you get it under control as I live in the land o' worms! (Texas). There are additional things that can be done to make the fight way less difficult and I'd love to help!

p.s. And yes - fenbendazole apparently can cause feather development abnormalities when used during molt. I think I'd wait til after they're done with molt, before they lay, and hit them with the wormer. Though you could use wazine now - might be a good idea - no eggs to toss, and then hit them with ivermectin/pyrantel after their molt is nearly done before laying. Perfect timing!

I used wazine on them a few weeks ago, and had asked before about penning them in sections (since I have soooooo many) to worm them with the other. I went ahead and got the ivermectin pour-on today, I was checking some babies in the brooder, and I swear, a 6 week old silkie had to have at least 10-20 mites/lice under each wing, in the brooder!! So I got the ivermectin for the big birds, and some garden/poultry dust for the brooder babies.
I've seen large worms in some droppings, either round or whip (if chickens can get those?). I didn't examine it too close, but it was a 3-4" long roundish worm. So I know they've got them bad. The wazine was 2 or 3 weeks ago, but I can't be sure if all of them got it, since they are free range. And I do have some probios, but it comes back to them free-ranging, I can't be sure if they are all getting it. I don't have the facilities right now to lock them up for any treatments, not all at the same time anyway.
So anyway, wazine was 2-3 weeks ago, probios is available, I've just been penning up the worst ones and treating them with it. My feed is a bit low, I think it's 16% protein, and it is a cattle grower feed, so a lot of grains are in it. I'll have to get a different kind, as soon as I can afford it

Then I have the ivermectin pour-on, with a syringe and I believe an 18 gauge needle. And the poultry dust. Hopefully I can take care of most things they have

I also got a vitamin supplement, I can't think of the name right off, but it is a water soluble vitamin/electrolyte mix. If I'd have noticed that, I would have passed, since I already have a vitamin/electrolyte solution

Oh well, I guess at least I won't run out

 

[ninejw]

With topical moxidectrin (ie scatt) it's used to treat air sac mites but will it also kill fowl or feather mites (non blood sucking) and also was wondering if it would kill gape worms b/c they also are attached via tissue? I tried talking to vetafarm and they said it should help with feather mites on caged birds but after applying it to my chickens I found that one of them had body lice and it was a week after the treatment so I guess that it really didnt affect the lice. I noticed however that it did significantly improve scaley leg within 2 weeks or so. (btw never by chickens at an auction this is how I ended up with these problems!) Any thoughts on the usage of moxidectrin for this other stuff?
Jen

 

[BarkerChickens]

First off, GREAT thread!! Very useful!

I have a few question. I have 30 chickens with the youngest being 7 mos old. Two are molting right now. They are usually in their run, but do free range as well. All seems well, but one of the Jersey Giant hens seems a little light compared to the others, but I don't know that I would go as far to say that she has lost weight. As a side note, all chicken poo looks normal (no worm segments, visible eggs, blood, etc). After reading this thread, I figure that I should go ahead and worm them with Wazine. We use the DLM in the coop and haven't built the poop board yet. If we worm then, do we need to muck out the coop everyday to get the paralyzed (soon to be dead) worms out? Or will they rot and be ok? I am not sure how many weeks it will be before the poop board gets done.

Also, at the beginning of the summer, we had a HUGE infestation with grub worms (literally hundreds of them!). Our chickens spent the next week or two scratching in the area and finding all sorts of grubs to eat. They have never had access to the earthworms since we had heard they were bad for chickens. Do we need to worm for tapeworm as well then? We have 1% Ivermectin (injectable) already that I can add in their water for round two, but it is near expired, so if there is something that would be better for "deworming - round 2" then, I can get it. Is there a product that has Ivermectin AND Pyrantel in it or must they be bought separately? I did a quick search online, but didn't see such a product. If I need to treat for tapeworms as well, do I need to do two doses as well? Can the products be used simultaneously?

Thanks, Threehorses!!

 

[CluckThis]

Feed pumpkin, it's a natural wormer.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
Pumpkin won't actually treat an infestation, and it's no good against tapes.

 

[threehorses]

Quote:
If you worm them, I'd do it after after the molt - before they start to lay again.

You don't have to actually clean it out, but I would recommend if you use wazine, going back with a more broad spectrum wormer in 2-4 weeks. If you haven't wormed in over 6 months, and you have a thin bird, it might be wise to do wazine first.

Good on the grubs, but yeah - they do carry stuff. And chickens will just pick up worms everywhere - even from wild birds, etc.

Honestly ivermectin injectable used orally moves through them very fast, and I don't feel it's as effective at all as the pour-on. But yes, you can get a paste ivermectin/pyrantel wormer for horses in a paste. Feed a bb-sized piece in each beak. Of course, tapes are notorioiusly difficult to get rid of - really you have to keep things dry, not feed extra worms, etc, and just do what you can. But Pyrantel is your best bet on that one. The product for horses (zimectrin gold is one of them, I think) is combined together - just give the one paste.