Toad Raising.

[Compost King]

This is probably the coolest thread I've read here in BYC.

Yes, this is absolutely the coolest thread in BYC, I read it often.

 

[CindyinSD]

Fodder might make a nice filler. I used to grow it and the chickens loved it including the CX.

I plan on getting into fodder again along with black soldier fly and duckweed.

I used to ferment grains and germinated grains for my chickens also. Was totally trying to get into self sustainability all the way around. Now recently I have discovered black soldier fly and duckweed. They have about 42% protein so I was thinking about making my own fermented feed and diluting it to 15%, 22% and 25% protein levels.

I really dig the idea of self sustainment but will probably never totally achieve that and am.very far from it exactly right now.

So I also really like this thread and you sharing this information. It gives me confidence that my ideas are on the right track.

Soon others including myself will be employing these techniques with the CX and be able to become self sustaining meat bird farmers.

Others like yourself who figure this out will be able to provide these kinds of chicks locally especially in rural areas.

I see a whole new trend in chicken breeding coming on.

All different colored and flavored super meaty affordable broiler chicks spread across American back yards.

Fodder as in sprouted grains isn't alchemy and it's a lot of work. When I say it's not alchemy, I mean that it doesn't increase the protein level or availability appreciably if at all. There may be a short time, immediately following sprouting, when the protein becomes more bioavailable, but the same minimal benefit would be more easily achieved by fermenting lightly or cooking.

The grain contains enough stored resources to get the embryo sprouted and into the sunlight. After that, the energy of the seed is exhausted and the seed dies in birthing the plant. At this point you have lost-not gained-resources. From this stage on the plant draws food from the sun and the soil. Congratulations--you are now growing a crop, into which you will pour a considerable investment of energy before you can harvest and feed it.

Fermenting is easier, but not a lot different in terms of converting a low into a high energy feed. The benefits of fermentation come in its effect on the animal's gut. I've read (but cannot now find) studies hard for a non-scientist like me to understand fully, in which it was found that alterations to the microscopic landscape of the chicken's intestinal tract increase substantially the available surface area for absorption of nutrients and reduce the body's wastage of said nutrients. This reduces substantially (in huge factory farms) the amount of feed required.

For small-timers such as ourselves this reduction is negligible, but imo worthwhile in terms of healthier animals. IMO light fermentation (several hours in already inoculated (by previous batches) feed--as in rising bread dough). This way one can feel reasonably sure he is growing yeast and beneficial bacteria, not botulism.

But I digress. I'm not sure there is a short cut to sustainable chicken ranching. Plant perennial fodder crops appropriate to your own area. Many of these take many years to produce enough to make a difference. Fence your land very well, plant/provide many opportunities for cover and let your birds free range in the daytime. Try comfrey--I'm in process of a comfrey experiment now--which purportedly grows nearly everywhere and is high in protein & loved by most livestock.

Reduce your livestock drastically as winter approaches. Can, dry, salt/smoke and as a last resort, freeze for the lean months. It's a long term project for sure and especially tricky for those of us who live in short-season areas.

 

[Kusanar]

Fodder as in sprouted grains isn't alchemy and it's a lot of work. When I say it's not alchemy, I mean that it doesn't increase the protein level or availability appreciably if at all. There may be a short time, immediately following sprouting, when the protein becomes more bioavailable, but the same minimal benefit would be more easily achieved by fermenting lightly or cooking.

I think, but am not positive, that they wanted the fodder as a less nutritionally dense substitute for grain. To keep CX alive longer than just processing time you have to seriously restrict the feed and then you have hungry birds for 90% of the day. With fodder they may be able to fill up but not get a lot of nutrition out of it.

 

[duluthralphie]

Fodder as in sprouted grains isn't alchemy and it's a lot of work. When I say it's not alchemy, I mean that it doesn't increase the protein level or availability appreciably if at all. There may be a short time, immediately following sprouting, when the protein becomes more bioavailable, but the same minimal benefit would be more easily achieved by fermenting lightly or cooking.

The grain contains enough stored resources to get the embryo sprouted and into the sunlight. After that, the energy of the seed is exhausted and the seed dies in birthing the plant. At this point you have lost-not gained-resources. From this stage on the plant draws food from the sun and the soil. Congratulations--you are now growing a crop, into which you will pour a considerable investment of energy before you can harvest and feed it.

Fermenting is easier, but not a lot different in terms of converting a low into a high energy feed. The benefits of fermentation come in its effect on the animal's gut. I've read (but cannot now find) studies hard for a non-scientist like me to understand fully, in which it was found that alterations to the microscopic landscape of the chicken's intestinal tract increase substantially the available surface area for absorption of nutrients and reduce the body's wastage of said nutrients. This reduces substantially (in huge factory farms) the amount of feed required.

For small-timers such as ourselves this reduction is negligible, but imo worthwhile in terms of healthier animals. IMO light fermentation (several hours in already inoculated (by previous batches) feed--as in rising bread dough). This way one can feel reasonably sure he is growing yeast and beneficial bacteria, not botulism.

But I digress. I'm not sure there is a short cut to sustainable chicken ranching. Plant perennial fodder crops appropriate to your own area. Many of these take many years to produce enough to make a difference. Fence your land very well, plant/provide many opportunities for cover and let your birds free range in the daytime. Try comfrey--I'm in process of a comfrey experiment now--which purportedly grows nearly everywhere and is high in protein & loved by most livestock.

Reduce your livestock drastically as winter approaches. Can, dry, salt/smoke and as a last resort, freeze for the lean months. It's a long term project for sure and especially tricky for those of us who live in short-season areas.

Interesting to know you’re a fermenter. I did not know that.

I am an anti-fermenter. But I also have learned to never debate fermenting. It’s like discussing religion. To each his/her own.

No matter what and how you feed animals, I think the important thing is caring and loving being with the animals is the most important.

I have never found a fermenter that does not take great care of their animals, it’s a lot of work, I am just too lazy.

 

[duluthralphie]

I think, but am not positive, that they wanted the fodder as a less nutritionally dense substitute for grain. To keep CX alive longer than just processing time you have to seriously restrict the feed and then you have hungry birds for 90% of the day. With fodder they may be able to fill up but not get a lot of nutrition out of it.

Yes, you have to severely limit the intact on toads.

They are so efficient at getting nutrients and every last calorie out of anything they eat.

I only fed mine for 20 minutes a day right before bedtime, just so they would forage and get exercise. If you feed them a lot they will become fat lazy slobs and die of ascites or heart issues.

 

[trescloudy]

I would like it if we could get this thread back on the subject of toad raising. I started this thread for those getting toad eggs or wanting to, so we could discuss what we are doing with the toads.

I think what is being said about the larger breeds within a species can make sense. However, I do not want to get too far out in the weeds. Now if one of you actually feeds say extra calcium to the birds, the results would be important to all of us.

I never fed them high calcium I do however feed gravel and grit early on and the birds have access to the hens oyster shells as soon as they free range. Most of you know I free range during the day early on. by 4 weeks in the summer. This time of year not so much.


I also have never tried a vitamin in the water. That may be a worthwhile venture, considering the considerable amount of water the toads and CX have to take in to metabolize their feed.


Thanks all.

I am trying to get the people in Minnesota who are getting toad eggs now to join us on here, hopefully they will.

Yes, this is absolutely the coolest thread in BYC, I read it often.

Fodder as in sprouted grains isn't alchemy and it's a lot of work. When I say it's not alchemy, I mean that it doesn't increase the protein level or availability appreciably if at all. There may be a short time, immediately following sprouting, when the protein becomes more bioavailable, but the same minimal benefit would be more easily achieved by fermenting lightly or cooking.

The grain contains enough stored resources to get the embryo sprouted and into the sunlight. After that, the energy of the seed is exhausted and the seed dies in birthing the plant. At this point you have lost-not gained-resources. From this stage on the plant draws food from the sun and the soil. Congratulations--you are now growing a crop, into which you will pour a considerable investment of energy before you can harvest and feed it.

Fermenting is easier, but not a lot different in terms of converting a low into a high energy feed. The benefits of fermentation come in its effect on the animal's gut. I've read (but cannot now find) studies hard for a non-scientist like me to understand fully, in which it was found that alterations to the microscopic landscape of the chicken's intestinal tract increase substantially the available surface area for absorption of nutrients and reduce the body's wastage of said nutrients. This reduces substantially (in huge factory farms) the amount of feed required.

For small-timers such as ourselves this reduction is negligible, but imo worthwhile in terms of healthier animals. IMO light fermentation (several hours in already inoculated (by previous batches) feed--as in rising bread dough). This way one can feel reasonably sure he is growing yeast and beneficial bacteria, not botulism.

But I digress. I'm not sure there is a short cut to sustainable chicken ranching. Plant perennial fodder crops appropriate to your own area. Many of these take many years to produce enough to make a difference. Fence your land very well, plant/provide many opportunities for cover and let your birds free range in the daytime. Try comfrey--I'm in process of a comfrey experiment now--which purportedly grows nearly everywhere and is high in protein & loved by most livestock.

Reduce your livestock drastically as winter approaches. Can, dry, salt/smoke and as a last resort, freeze for the lean months. It's a long term project for sure and especially tricky for those of us who live in short-season areas.

I started reading this long post and immediately see you didn't understand my response to using fodder as a filler. Filler as in something to decrease protein.

Also fodder is grass and please show me a chicken that dont appreciate fresh grass every day lol.

I've grown lots of fodder and it's hardly a lot of work or investment for that matter. Maybe for a large farm but I can produce 2 flats a day of fodder no problem.

Have you actually tried it.

Remember i responded to use fodder as a filler. I never liked the idea of feeding just one source... balanced chicken diet includes grasses, insects and grains...

 

[CindyinSD]

Yes, you have to severely limit the intact on toads.

They are so efficient at getting nutrients and every last calorie out of anything they eat.

I only fed mine for 20 minutes a day right before bedtime, just so they would forage and get exercise. If you feed them a lot they will become fat lazy slobs and die of ascites or heart issues.

I've been doing that with all my birds. They get fed in the evening. That's it. Next day they go forth and forage like crazy.

 

[duluthralphie]

I've been doing that with all my birds. They get fed in the evening. That's it. Next day they go forth and forage like crazy.

Make them work for their keep!!!

 

[CindyinSD]

I started reading this long post and immediately see you didn't understand my response to using fodder as a filler. Filler as in something to decrease protein.

Also fodder is grass and please show me a chicken that dont appreciate fresh grass every day lol.

I've grown lots of fodder and it's hardly a lot of work or investment for that matter. Maybe for a large farm but I can produce 2 flats a day of fodder no problem.

Have you actually tried it.

Remember i responded to use fodder as a filler. I never liked the idea of feeding just one source... balanced chicken diet includes grasses, insects and grains...

Yes, I've tried it... just a half dozen trays as an experiment but you're right--I misunderstood your goals. My birds didn't warm up to it--and it was winter--definitely winter--no doubt it would be much easier with the right set-up, but winter is when it's most needed and a lot of people lack a feasible place to locate the system. Esp me, as DH isn't supposed to have plants in the house.

The internet is full of instructionals that claim a significant jump in protein with no verification. Sorry about misunderstanding your goals. It sounded to me like you wanted to be sustainable with the minimum of outside sources (which is really hard imo). I immediately jumped to feed, because living where I do, that is absolutely the biggest challenge.

My response to the question of reproducible meat birds has been to work on teaching myself to caponize. I still have a long way to go with that. My last batch of subjects are in the freezer (prematurely) --except for the ones that as it turned out didn't have testes at all. They're back to running under my feet everywhere I try to go. This is the first time I've lost one, and I lost three. I guess they were too big. I didn't weigh them, just eyeballed but they were definitely bigger than the last batch.

 

[trescloudy]

I personally didn't have a single issue with fodder as it can be grown with several kinds of "grasses".

If you are in a cold climate rye can be grown at very cool temps and wheat isnt far behind. I dont really know for sure the protein level but I know the birds devoured it. I also like growing things and experimenting so it fits in my schedule and it honestly growing fodder takes up very little space. It is a tad bit more time consuming but once again I enjoy it.

Winter is the best time to do fodder and because it is a cool weather crop it works well during the winter.

Capone? I plan on getting into that this Spring. I've watched several videos and read up on it. Doesn't seem that tough to me.

I like breeding so it's going to be fun for me to play with CX genetics. If it works will be a huge bonus.

We all do it our own way because of our situations and interests. Thanks for sharing yours. ✌