Vacinations and other meds forever?

[Lady of McCamley]

I do want to add some balance to the thread in case some might misunderstand.

Keeping for long term sustainability does not mean a hands off approach to your flock.

It is NOT simply tossing a bunch of birds onto a half acre or acre of land and letting nature take its course. If you do such, you will quickly end up with no birds...definitely within a few years.

New birds on fresh land usually means the first 2 or 3 years without any trouble. However, if you have limited field rotation, as many small back yard owners do, after about 3 years, perhaps 5, you begin to see troubles as parasites and pathogens begin to build up.

Some have problems from the very beginning as their climate and soil are more fertile to pathogen growth. Those with long freezing winters will have less problems than those in warm, humid climates and mild winters.

Herbals and selection can be great, but only if you actively manage your flock with good husbandry.

Herbals only slow down build up. They do not kill pathogens. If you are not actively rotating your field surface in one manner or another, or have another active program to prevent pathogen build up, you will eventually get animals that are sicker.

Selection is very helpful. Only keep those animals who thrive in your environment and cull any who are weak or non-thrifty. That insures a solid stock foundation.

But you have to actively, wisely, manage your environment or sooner or later you will face some out breaks which always seem to come at the most inopportune time.

"Organic" or "natural" methods require a lot of muscle from the owner if the holdings are smaller.

For those with very small land holdings (a coop and run on a small corner of a city lot), it will require some strong management and likely some periodic meds to prevent disease out break as you are approximating the cage existence and heavy load on a small area similar to the commercial industries...it will just take you awhile longer to get there, depending upon your general environment and climate.

LofMc

 

[Silkiesarefluffydinos]

I've been reading posts regarding vaccinations, antibiotics and other health issues with chickens and it seems that most people buy chicks that are vaccinated and who are also put on antibiotics if anything occurs with their health. I've also read, however, that vaccinations are typically sold in large quantities more for commercial farmers. My question is, should backyard chicken owners with a small flock just never let their hens hatch any chicks? Is it better to just always buy new vaccinated chicks? Seems so pointless to not be able to see new generations of chickens come out of your own flock. One non vaccinated chick that may get something from their parents who are vaccinated but still carriers would mean your whole new batch of chicks would then get sick and even if they don't all die, a lot of people say just "cull" your entire flock. Respiratory diseases, mareks you name it. I can't imagine this was the case back in the day. Is anyone successfully breeding stronger birds by breeding those birds that are able to fight off these diseases and able to sustain a constant cycle that way? Is there info somewhere that we can read more about THAT type of chicken keeping?

In my opinion, I think it doesn't really matter whether your hatched chicks are vaccinated or not, because usually, as long as you keep them in a good, clean enviorment, normally most chicks naturally develop an immunity to most diseases, and our hen hatched (not hen raised because our hen isn't reliable enough to raise chicks) chickens actually are doing better than most or our hens with vaccines!

 

[Eric R]

Thanks all for all for the responses and info. It is all greatly appreciate. It seems as though I'm not the only one that is leaning towards a more natural approach. It seems logical to just fight diseases with meds but that's short term thinking. I am looking forward to long term chicken raising with chickens that are able to hold there own with me doing my part of course. That being said, the topic of rotating pasture is an interesting one and also one that I'm sure others want more info on. So how does one keep chickens for longer than 3-5 yrs on small land? I have 1 acre but even that I'm sure will eventually become overused. What kind of "rest" period is recommended between rotations? My chickens free range over the entire acre so not sure if this is good or bad or sustainable long term. We have about 20 chickens.

 

[Arya28]

I do want to add some balance to the thread in case some might misunderstand.

Keeping for long term sustainability does not mean a hands off approach to your flock.

It is NOT simply tossing a bunch of birds onto a half acre or acre of land and letting nature take its course. If you do such, you will quickly end up with no birds...definitely within a few years.

New birds on fresh land usually means the first 2 or 3 years without any trouble. However, if you have limited field rotation, as many small back yard owners do, after about 3 years, perhaps 5, you begin to see troubles as parasites and pathogens begin to build up.

Some have problems from the very beginning as their climate and soil are more fertile to pathogen growth. Those with long freezing winters will have less problems than those in warm, humid climates and mild winters.

Herbals and selection can be great, but only if you actively manage your flock with good husbandry.

Herbals only slow down build up. They do not kill pathogens. If you are not actively rotating your field surface in one manner or another, or have another active program to prevent pathogen build up, you will eventually get animals that are sicker.

Selection is very helpful. Only keep those animals who thrive in your environment and cull any who are weak or non-thrifty. That insures a solid stock foundation.

But you have to actively, wisely, manage your environment or sooner or later you will face some out breaks which always seem to come at the most inopportune time.

"Organic" or "natural" methods require a lot of muscle from the owner if the holdings are smaller.

For those with very small land holdings (a coop and run on a small corner of a city lot), it will require some strong management and likely some periodic meds to prevent disease out break as you are approximating the cage existence and heavy load on a small area similar to the commercial industries...it will just take you awhile longer to get there, depending upon your general environment and climate.

LofMc

What we are doing is most certainly anything but throwing them in a pen and letting nature take its course. It's about creating a symbiotic environment, in which everything works in harmony, and our chickens benefit from the soil and add nutrients and fertilization to the soil. And vice versa.

It's permaculture as opposed to agriculture. *Most* big-time agriculturists practice "monoculture" where they plant a load of one crop in a spot, and let it do it's thing. A lot of the times these fields of crops need to be sprayed with toxic pesticides and chemicals because it creates an imbalance in the soil. When you practice permaculture, you plant different companion plants together, so that they can benefit each other, grow together, and keep the soil in the area nice and healthy. The bug populations will then also benefit from this and thrive, but in a balanced way. They can generally do their thing together, without needing to be sprayed and rotated all the time. You supplement them with what they might need (calcium, sulphur, etc.), and they will take off. We are putting this same principle to use with our chickens and our garden.

This doesn't mean that we just throw herbs in with them and say have at it. From the time they are babies we are paying very close attention to their behavior and their health, so we know what to supplement them with and when, and if you do that it will generally allow their own immune systems to do the rest. You have to trust that their immune systems are meant to keep them alive, and if you know you're supporting that, they will be stronger for it.

Yes, the words "organic" and "natural" sound good, but that's not why they are important. The saying "you are what you eat" is very true, especially when it comes to your chickens. And then if you eat their eggs, or even their meat, you are literally becoming what your chickens ate. We don't eat our chickens, some do, but we do eat their eggs. And we know that supplementing them with nutrients and herbs is making their eggs that much healthier.

If your chicken food isn't labeled organic, it is genetically modified and has been sprayed with pesticides. If your chicken is eating gmo food, it is literally becoming a genetically modified chicken. And the pesticides make they way, way, more prone to cancers and other diseases.

A common misconception is that herbs can only supplement to a point, but they can't actually get rid of diseases and kill illnesses. They most certainly can, you just have to use the right herbs for the right reasons. Like, with coccidiosis, corrid doesn't actually kill the parasitic protozoa that cause the disease. However, oregano and aloe actually kill that protozoa. Oregano and garlic are both antibacterial and antimicrobial and so they do actually kill bacterial infections in chickens- this is why they also work as antibiotic. So much so, that if you have had your chickens on oregano for a long enough period, you want to supplement them with probiotics to restore their gut flora. However, they aren't as harmful as an actual antibiotic, and are much more beneficial to their immune systems in the long run.

We have a good bit of land (about 18 1/2 acres) and so we rotate their pens, and let them free range part of the time. We let them fertilize and "till" the soil in one portion of the yard for a season, and then move them. They are uptaking the nutrients from the ground, and providing it with fertilization. So we can then grow plants and use compost from where they were, and move them to a fresh spot with new grass and plant growth.

When they are not in pens, they are free ranging (when we can keep an eye on them). If you can safely let them free range, I say go for it. They eat the local pants that they need and they benefit the land. We don't do it all the time, but we do when we can pay attention to it (because of predators and stuff). But lots of people do all the time! We just aren't there yet, mostly because we are working on getting them situated in their winter coops.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

Thanks all for all for the responses and info. It is all greatly appreciate. It seems as though I'm not the only one that is leaning towards a more natural approach. It seems logical to just fight diseases with meds but that's short term thinking. I am looking forward to long term chicken raising with chickens that are able to hold there own with me doing my part of course. That being said, the topic of rotating pasture is an interesting one and also one that I'm sure others want more info on. So how does one keep chickens for longer than 3-5 yrs on small land? I have 1 acre but even that I'm sure will eventually become overused. What kind of "rest" period is recommended between rotations? My chickens free range over the entire acre so not sure if this is good or bad or sustainable long term. We have about 20 chickens.

Having 20 chickens on 1 dedicated acre is not very heavy coverage depending upon the conditions. (If the house is on that acre too, that cuts down forage considerably).

My SIL and daughter are running about 50 to 100 birds, depending on the season, as their focus is on produce farming for market...eggs and chickens are secondary. They use a chicken tractor and move birds as needed to various areas of the farm, I think every couple of days, or so, as they use the birds for natural pest control and fertilizer too. They are currently cultivating about 5 to 8 acres of the 90 acre tract they are on. As they are certified organic, they use no meds on their birds whatsoever. They rely on good stock and good husbandry with natural biological interactions on the farm, lots of sunshine, and good drainage.

I keep 15 to 18 birds on 1/3 acre. That is heavier coverage. I noticed changes by year 2 and definitely by 3. I should now rotate ground every season. I was warned by my daughter that I would have to find a way to rotate that field better to prevent heavy parasite loads.

While herbals flush worms from the intestines, they generally do not kill the parasites nor the intermediary hosts. Herbals definitely don't touch the oocysts or egg casings.

So you have to either treat the land or move the birds. Sunlight is good for reducing worm load as UV light kills a lot of the worm eggs. So is freezing temps, thus those in cold areas get a boost from mother nature. I don't use DE as I want the bacteria for deep litter. I also have very wet conditions in which DE is known not to work well in.

Be sure you don't have any stagnate areas with standing water or mud. Keep your chickens on dry ground. I have to keep deep bark to prevent solid mud.

Clean the coop regularly to avoid loads there. I've used orange oil to keep down parasites, until they seemed to build a resistance to that after about year 3. I now use permethrin dust, but you can get the natural pyrethrum.

Since I do deep litter, it creates nice loam in the runs with my clay soil, but on 1/3 acre, it also builds up parasite loads. I can't rotate birds over ground, so I do the next best thing. I remove ground. I have friends come over each spring and fall with shovels and buckets who eagerly scoop up the black gold from my chicken runs to use in their gardens. I then lay down fresh bark and pine shavings and turn the birds loose. This helps me keep loads down naturally in my very wet and mild wintered Oregon. But I do end up periodically using meds when an outbreak occurs (generally once a year). That's me. I'm on very small property in wet, mild lands.

LofMc

 

[Folly's place]

Welcome! You will get ten (slightly) different opinions from ten flock keepers here, and all may work for you, or not. There's no one way to manage your chickens on your property; so much depends on your birds and local conditions.
When I order chicks from a hatchery, they are vaccinated for Marek's disease. It's cheap, and may be life saving for them later. I have broody raised chicks here every year in my flock, and none of those chicks are vaccinated for Marek's. If I have an unexpected/ unexplained death in my flock, The bird gets necropsied, so I have a good idea what the problem was. No Marek's disease here so far, a good thing.
Biosecurity is essential in keeping a healthy flock, free of nasty diseases. I'm blessed to not have near neighbors who have 'random source' sick chickens! I never bring in outside birds, except chicks from safe hatcheries, or sometimes breeders. Because I'm never going to take birds to poultry shows, SQ birds don't interest me at all.
Good husbandry is so important! Nobody's healthy in a bad environment, and no sickly bird needs to be bred. Keep good birds and eliminate the others!
Most of all, enjoy your birds, and be able to smile when you look at them, and what you've done out there. Mary

 

[Arya28]

While herbals flush worms from the intestines, they generally do not kill the parasites nor the intermediary hosts. Herbals definitely don't touch the oocysts or egg casings.

So you have to either treat the land or move the birds. Sunlight is good for reducing worm load as UV light kills a lot of the worm eggs. So is freezing temps, thus those in cold areas get a boost from mother nature. I don't use DE as I want the bacteria for deep litter. I also have very wet conditions in which DE is known not to work well in.

I'm really not trying to argue about this, I respect that you have chickens and are treating them how you think is best. And I agree with a lot that you said in previous posts. Everyone has their own ways that they treat their chickens; no two people will chicken keep the same way.

That said, herbs are very, very much underestimated. And it is a common misconception that herbs cannot kill parasites, because they most definitely can. I am just going to put this information here, in case someone finds it beneficial.

But if you think about why herbs kill parasites, it makes sense. It's nature's way of keeping the balance. If there are too many harmful parasites, a plant will grow that will take care of it. The only time nature isn't balanced is when man interferes.

And a lot of people have no choice but to turn to these herbal solutions, because parasites are becoming biologically resistant to the chemicals that they are conventionally treated with. (Read about that more here)

• Pumpkin seeds contain a natural fat that is toxic to and kills parasite eggs. They don't kill the parasites themselves, they paralyze them and cause them to drop out of the intestines and exit via poop. Read more about it here, under "Pumpkin Seeds".
• Here is a very detailed study done on the effects of various different plants (including oregano, and grapeseed.) It might take a while to read, but it even explains how Aloe works against coccidiosis, and it's affect on the oocyst counts specifically.
• Here is another detailed article focused on oregano and it's affect on coccidiosis, as well as the antibacterial properties.
• Here is an article that talks about oregano, as well as other herbs for coccidiosis. It also talks about how wild birds naturally know how to use these natural things to treat themselves- wild birds don't take antibiotics. Even birds naturally know that herbs kill parasites and pathogens.
• Here is an article explaining why big-time chicken farms are using oregano oil, as opposed to antibiotics and why it works.
• Here is a FANTASTIC article that I highly recommend everyone reads about 9 herbs that will kill parasites in humans...think what they could do for your chickens. A quote from the article about garlic: "Garlic is able to slow and kill over 60 types of fungus and 20 types of bacteria, as well as some of the most potent viruses...When garlic is chopped or otherwise damaged, the enzyme alliinase acts on the chemical alliin, converting it into allicin, the active component contributing to its success for killing parasites." It also talks about cloves, and more specifically, how clove kills parasite eggs. It also talks about black walnut, and various other herbs.
• Here and Here are studies which talk about how Stevia kills lyme disease. Yes, you read that right. This is one of the best examples of how powerful herbs can be. Stevia, unlike antibiotics, can penetrate the cell wall and kill lyme disease. While this might not be the biggest concern for chickens, it shows how amazing herbs are.
• Here is a website for herbal cedar based sprays that kill ticks, fleas, lice, and other mites. Cedar can be toxic to chickens so I'm not recommending you spray it in your chicken coop. However, it has worked wonders for keeping ticks off our dogs, and is yet another example of how herbs kill mites and ticks and eggs.

I could go on, but you probably get the point, and the information is available if you want to find it. If you don't want to use herbs for some reason, that's ok and I'm not judging you. However, it has been proven again and again that they work, and there is a natural solution to keeping chickens parasite free.

 

[getaclue]

I am not against adding herbs, spices, and such to keep chickens in optimal health. I use some of them on my own chickens. Preventing, is not curing. There is a huge difference. Highly reputable certified organic farms using herbs, spices, and natural means to keep their chickens healthy will tell you that they do occasionally get chickens that get infections, and/or parasites that have to be treated with more conventional means. Most do one of 3 things, which is to treat the chicken, and sell it immediately as non organic, OR cull it, OR give it to a non organic farm.

This is a very interesting read. https://www.nature.com/ja/journal/v65/n8/full/ja201227a.html In essence, it boils down to money. Money to do the research, testing, and get approval, then be able to sell enough product for big pharma to recoup the expenses, and make a profit. The "natural, organic, herbal" industry is just as concerned about making a profit as big pharma. When researching some of their claims, far to many are misleading. While I don't like government interference, a major problem is that far too many don't have the integrity to self-regulate.

The bottom line is, be concerned about the well being, and comfort of your animal. When natural methods work, without compromising the health, well being, and comfort of your animal, by all means, use them. When they simply are not working for one, or more of your animals, then consider their welfare, and use something commercially available that is time tested, and known to treat the problem.

Yes, Perdue is using herbs now. That's a good thing, but that doesn't mean they don't have to cull sick chickens, or those with parasite overload. Of course they do. Does oregano have antibiotic properties? Yes, so in essence they are giving their chickens a constant dose of antibiotics, just in another form.

Links about scientific research into pumpkin seeds, parasites, and nematodes:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037735/
https://cars.desu.edu/sites/cars/files/document/16/pumpkin_seeds-worms_djo.pdf
http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/JPP/article-full-text-pdf/831473255099
Notice pp. 190 under Discussion. The large number of seeds needed to effect a reduction in worm load, caused gastric distress.

Links about scientific research into stevia, and lyme disease:
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/...er-cure-for-lyme-disease-researchers-say.html
Please note that further down the page, it mentions that the results were done in a test tube, and doesn't mean it will work in a human body.
https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-sci-whats-story-stevia/
https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/can-stevia-treat-lyme-disease

 

[Arya28]

I am not against adding herbs, spices, and such to keep chickens in optimal health. I use some of them on my own chickens. Preventing, is not curing. There is a huge difference. Highly reputable certified organic farms using herbs, spices, and natural means to keep their chickens healthy will tell you that they do occasionally get chickens that get infections, and/or parasites that have to be treated with more conventional means. Most do one of 3 things, which is to treat the chicken, and sell it immediately as non organic, OR cull it, OR give it to a non organic farm.

This is a very interesting read. https://www.nature.com/ja/journal/v65/n8/full/ja201227a.html In essence, it boils down to money. Money to do the research, testing, and get approval, then be able to sell enough product for big pharma to recoup the expenses, and make a profit. The "natural, organic, herbal" industry is just as concerned about making a profit as big pharma. When researching some of their claims, far to many are misleading. While I don't like government interference, a major problem is that far too many don't have the integrity to self-regulate.

The bottom line is, be concerned about the well being, and comfort of your animal. When natural methods work, without compromising the health, well being, and comfort of your animal, by all means, use them. When they simply are not working for one, or more of your animals, then consider their welfare, and use something commercially available that is time tested, and known to treat the problem.

Yes, Perdue is using herbs now. That's a good thing, but that doesn't mean they don't have to cull sick chickens, or those with parasite overload. Of course they do. Does oregano have antibiotic properties? Yes, so in essence they are giving their chickens a constant dose of antibiotics, just in another form.

Links about scientific research into pumpkin seeds, parasites, and nematodes:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5037735/
https://cars.desu.edu/sites/cars/files/document/16/pumpkin_seeds-worms_djo.pdf
http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/JPP/article-full-text-pdf/831473255099
Notice pp. 190 under Discussion. The large number of seeds needed to effect a reduction in worm load, caused gastric distress.

Links about scientific research into stevia, and lyme disease:
http://www.foxnews.com/health/2017/...er-cure-for-lyme-disease-researchers-say.html
Please note that further down the page, it mentions that the results were done in a test tube, and doesn't mean it will work in a human body.
https://www.lymedisease.org/lyme-sci-whats-story-stevia/
https://rawlsmd.com/health-articles/can-stevia-treat-lyme-disease

I think it's cool you're a squatch watcher. I respect that.

That said:

You're right; there absolutely is a difference between preventing and curing.

Both us and other people we know have successfully "cured" problems with these herbs. We have prevented problems, yes. But we most definitely have cured what could have been really big problems with herbs, including parasitic infestations, respiratory problems, and diseases.

...When an herb kills a parasite (and its eggs) that is causing an infestation, doesn't that count as curing it?

As far as Purdue giving their chickens oregano, it might be rough on their gut flora, but it is definitely a whole lot better for their immune systems than constantly being hit with antibiotics. Those chickens would definitely benefit from probiotics. I'm not saying they have it figured out completely yet, or that they are taking a balanced approach to it. But it's a step, even if they aren't doing it for the right reasons. Why? Because it's better for the chickens. The point is the fact that oregano has antibiotic properties to it, but it isn't as harmful as conventional antibiotics.

Of course you will get organic farmers who have chickens who get infestations and infections. This is most likely because the chickens have still been bred from a line of immune damage from vaccines and chemicals. And then they need meds to restore the balance because they were already imbalanced, even if they appeared to be "organic". These chickens would not survive in nature. It will take a few generations to be able to build up a line's immunity if it has been hit that hard.

"The large number of seeds needed to effect a reduction in worm load, caused gastric distress.".....um... so the pumpkin seeds gave the animals gas, but got rid of worms which most certainly would have made them malnourished and killed them over time.... I'm sorry, but someone will always be able to find a reason not to use something natural. If I have a choice and my dogs or chickens have worms, they will be getting pumpkin seeds and not some chemical that most certainly will be toxic, damage their immune system, and may not even work anyway. (If we really even need to get into why chemical wormers are bad, read about that here). Three doses twice a day of ground up pumpkin seeds in my dogs food completely got rid of an infestation that was really bad. I'm going with nature on this one.

Again, I trust nature and common sense more than I trust big pharma. I don't need a "natural" corporation to try and sell me things, I can grow a garden, and find herbs and plants outside, in nature.

"The bottom line is, be concerned about the well being, and comfort of your animal. When natural methods work, without compromising the health, well being, and comfort of your animal, by all means, use them. When they simply are not working for one, or more of your animals, then consider their welfare, and use something commercially available that is time tested, and known to treat the problem."

Natural methods work; you just have to know how to use them. They are better for the overall health of everyone involved. I do consider the welfare of my animals, I want them to be sustainable and well-adapted to this environment. I would want them to be able to survive if they had to live outside by themselves. I want to build their immune systems up rather than tear them down. I don't want them to be dependent on a system that most certainly isn't beneficial to them. I'm not going to feed them toxic chemicals just because the mainstream says they "are known to treat the problem". If a bird can't be treated naturally, they have been bred to be dependent on the system, so they wouldn't be able to survive in nature. It sounds harsh; but we don't cull birds in our flock like many do. We build up their immune systems and let them do the rest.

Again, as far as the stevia treating lyme disease, I know it works. I know people personally that have used the extract and are cured from it. I am certainly not going to trust a doctor on that when they are making their money from big pharma- they don't make money from people growing gardens... they make money from people being sick. I think that's enough said.

Personally, yes, I feel better about giving my chickens herbs than jamming them with needles that will overload their immune system, forcing antibiotics into them that will wipe out their gut flora, and then trying to fix that damage with more chemicals in the form of "medication". Oh, and then culling any that show any signs of sickness because it's backfiring. But that's just my opinion.

I've said what I believe to be true, and I've left resources for people who want to look more into it. It really is pointless for me to continue to argue about it, so I'm not going to.

Hopefully some of the information here will help people who need it. Our birds are healthier because of what we are doing and I don't need someone professional to tell me that.

Eric- I hope I have at least given you some ideas for keeping your flock natural! Good luck and update us with how it goes!

 

[getaclue]

Ayria, first off, you've totally misunderstood some of what I said, or taken it way out of context. Then too, some of it is pure nonsense, no matter how forcefully you say it, or how much of an authority you consider yourself to be on the matter.