Vacinations and other meds forever?

[Lady of McCamley]

I agree. It really depends on the illness and bird.

However, I have found that treating sick birds generally sets me up for failure in the future. Weak birds act like a vector for the flock bringing in pests as well as illness. And like Oldhenlikesdog said, I almost always lose them within the year anyway. Often a slow, malingering kind of death.

My illness treated birds are also often the ones that are my mite and lice magnets, which means I have to treat the flock.

So I tend to be a bit more hard nosed about it as I am breeding for long term sustainability. I only want the healthy and strong in the flock. In the wild, the weak would be eaten by predators or killed or driven off by the flock.

Harsh. Yes. But I have been advised over and over by successful breeders to not treat but cull any significant illnesses.

That of course is not lack of health due to poor living conditions. That is up to me to keep their lives happy, clean and stress free.

So I generally only treat external and internal parasites because my living conditions (smaller field space and climate) can lend to a build up. I have also treated coccidiosis in chicks, but also have lived to regret it. (Those hens were never thrifty).

I cull egg binding, failure to thrive or simple unthriftiness that does not respond to some simple TLC or parasite care, especially in chicks, and any physical deformities in chicks.

I also treat injury as that is not based upon the chicken's health. (Although, I've noticed my predators do tend to attack the weaker in the flock).

I did weather an Infectious Bronchitis outbreak one year (I did not understand good quarantine for a coveted breed I brought in as a pullet...she also brought in IB). For that, I treated and hoped for the best. Most survived.

I also rehome my aging hens to a friend on a large plot of land who likes the older layers for the larger eggs they give.

So I generally turn over my flock about every 3 years, keeping only valuable breeding animals longer.

As I perfect my flock, I hope to maintain them longer.

Just what I do.

LofMc

 

[getaclue]

I have a rooster that is 5 years old. He's still going strong, and still totally potent. I have 2 hens that laid on a daily basis until they were about 4 years old. After they hit 4 years old, they laid steady in spring, but slowed down some during the rest of the year, not laying every day, but at least 4 eggs a week. They are now 7 years old, and lay steady for at least 3 months in the spring, then slow down to about an egg a week for 3 months, then it's about an egg every other week. Those 3 were the start of my current flock. Yes, I have younger birds too, of course, but with good stock, and good management skills, I've found that mine produce a lot longer than 2 - 3 years.

 

[speckledhen]

Ok. So for those that cull the weak, does that mean not treating sickness and culling right away or simply not allowing them to hatch chicks? If i can treat a sick hen and she recovers, why not get eggs from her?

Me personally, I would only cull a bird with a carrier type disease or a human-aggressive rooster (after giving him a few chances to learn who is in charge). There are degrees of "weak". A bird who has had a fungal lung infection or pneumonia and recovered may be susceptible to breathing difficulties at certain times for the rest of its life, not necessarily that you have to medicate it.

For example, my Delaware rooster had a fungal infection one odd summer along with three older hens. They all recovered, but from then on, his lung capacity seemed to be diminished. He'd hoof it across the yard and would have to stop suddenly and seemed to have trouble catching his breath on extreme exertion. He did that for the rest of his life, periodically, but he lived to be 6 yrs 7 mos old and died one sunny day while chasing his hens. He was not ill, per se, but he was affected. He produced a lot of very strong sons and daughters after that infection.

One of the hens who also had the fungal infection was a Brahma who was a habitual sneezer her entire life. At the time of the infection, she was over 5 years old. We felt her nares were malformed (and later, she had cysts in both of them). About two weeks after recovering from the fungal infection, she had bubbles in her eyes and I panicked, never saw that before, so I called the then Ga state vet (I would not trust the one in charge now for anything). Dr. Bohannan said she had a secondary bacterial sinusitis, persuant to the fungal infection, that she was not contagious and to give her Tylan for five days and she should be fine. I was very close to culling that hen and I'm glad I didn't. She lived to be almost 10 years old and died last October. But, she was prone to that same sinusitis every time we had a prolonged cold, wet period, so yes, she was weakened, but she was not a breeder by that time, only a pet. And she did not/could not infect other birds.

YOU decide how you will manage your flock, Eric. No one should tell you what you must do. But, be armed with information, good information from credible sources, some of whom have answered you here. Everyone must choose what path they will take in regard to disease prevention and/or management. I chose mine before I ever had chickens, though circumstance may make you tweak those decisions later.

ETA: I have 8, 9, 10 and going on 11 year old hens, some of whom still lay at least one period during the year. The oldest laid 17 eggs between Nov and April.

 

[speckledhen]

However, I have found that treating sick birds generally sets me up for failure in the future. Weak birds act like a vector for the flock bringing in pests as well as illness. And like Oldhenlikesdog said, I almost always lose them within the year anyway. Often a slow, malingering kind of death.

My illness treated birds are also often the ones that are my mite and lice magnets, which means I have to treat the flock.

Exactly right. I have two hens, my very oldest, a Barred Rock, who is almost 11 (and lays!) and one about to turn 10 yrs old, both of whom have lost the use of one leg to severe arthritis. Neither dustbathes, though one does try in her limited way when I take her out and place her in the dirt. I have to take them outside and rub dirt through their feathers myself, but with 40 birds, who has time to do that to two hens daily? It's time-consuming. The Ameraucana refuses to even try to dustbathe and only wants to be held like a baby. Well, this year for the first time ever, not surprisingly, they got mites, almost microscopic little things we only knew were there because my husband held the Ameraucana hen and said his face felt like he had cobwebs on it afterward, very itchy. I've had chickens for a dozen years and NEVER once had to treat one for mites until now. No lice, thankfully.

It was always in the back of my mind that these elderly, crippled hens would be prone to lice or mites and, of course, they are. Neither has ever been sick in a respiratory sense, just crippled. So, what LoMcC and oldhenlikesdogs, what you both said is absolutely true. The weak, whether through illness or infirmity, are more prone to pests of any sort.

But, I treated all the birds for mites, even if they were not visible; each bird was dusted with permethrin, first time I ever used something of that nature in my barn. My shavings and nestboxes have had DE in them forever, and even herbs sprinkled in the nests (I like the smell), but mites, well, it won't touch those, not those super tiny things. This is what I meant earlier when I said you do not make your birds suffer for a principal. But, your choice, your birds. I feel it's a little nuts to keep doing what you're doing based on some principal you wish to adhere to if it is not working and just let the birds suffer, maybe to the point of anemia and/ or death.

 

[lazy gardener]

Excellent discussion here. Agreed, each flock master must choose his/her path. I had 2 hens who were allowed to play in the gene pool this spring in spite of having crooked toes. After doing some research, and being well aware of the issues I had with a new incubator the previous spring (inconsistent temp issues), I determined that I would allow their eggs into the incubator. My rationale being: Those toe issues were caused by incubation error, and were not genetic in nature. I could have been wrong, and found more crooked toes this spring. To counter that, I resolved that I would cull any such chicks this season. All chicks hatched with beautiful toes. That is what good animal husbandry is all about. Do the research, and make the hard decisions that will result in an improved flock.

As for husbands of the human kind: I find it sad that our society jokes about throw away marriages.

 

[speckledhen]

The husband thing was surely just an off the cuff joke, but being a woman married to the same man for almost 42 years, I can still laugh at those. I have a fabulous man with integrity who loves me to the fullest, and even though the chickens are "mine", he takes care of them almost as much as I do, sometimes more if the situation calls for it. But, still, I can joke that I've never thought about divorce, yet murder does occasionally occur to me, LOL. J/K! Hey, men, right? From different planets and all that...

Back to the discussion, I agree that good research and from that knowledge, making some tough decisions for the overall good of your flock will go a long way to having one you can truly enjoy in the future. I've made a few of my own tough calls in the realm of not keeping too many roosters, though I truly did not want to let them go. It cannot be fun having lots of weak birds or birds that have relapses of respiratory illnesses all the time.Why would anyone want to do this if it was not at all enjoyable? Thankfully, we don't have that here.

Make no mistake, whether you choose to try a natural, holistic route or a chemical route to fix respiratory symptoms, if the birds have contracted MG/MS or Coryza or ILT, they are carriers if they survive. Nothing changes that. They cannot be cured, not really. It's whether to cull them or keep the weakened birds that you must decide. If you breed and want to sell stock, that makes your decision for you. You can't ethically pass that on to other people.

Even caring for crippled older hens can be tiresome at times, thinking of all the details that they themselves cannot take care of-the lack of dustbathing so you have to watch for pests on them, trimming toenails and beaks that do not get trimmed naturally, letting them get out for sunbaths to help their overall well-being, making sure their crops are working well because they are always laying in their chest, etc. It can't be fun for them, either, not being able to do all the things they could earlier in their lives. But, the bird I remember with the most zest and enjoyment of life was my crippled rooster, Zane. We cared for him for over four years after an injury caused permanent tendon damage and gradually cost him the use of one leg. He was the most cheerful fellow I've ever seen, but I am not a breeder who crunches numbers and he was a pet and very attached to me and I to him. Most would have culled him.... and trust me, if he had wanted to die and showed me as much, I would have helped him along, but he wanted to live and loved his life.

There is the breeder mentality and there is a pet chicken mentality and some folks are a little of both-that would be me. I want great examples of the breed, don't want to breed in bad traits willy nilly, I know the SOP for the breeds I have, etc, and I want to keep them healthy and strong and will not knowingly bring in disease and do all I can to prevent it. But, as long as they are not sick, they do live out their lives here, even if they stop laying or become infirm and I enjoy them as pets, see another side of them than just what they look like per the Standard. This is the way I manage that has given me the most pleasure, raising eye candy with heritage and rare breeds that others can benefit from when I do sell hatching eggs or extra chicks, and keeping them free of contagious disease so I do not cause heartache in someone else's flock, but not getting so serious with it that I stop enjoying what I do. Again, a personal decision to make for everyone.

 

[igorsMistress]

@Lady of McCamley for clarification, when you say keep a diverse flock, do you mean grow out chicks, keep the strong and get rid of the weak in one breed? Or do you mean mix breeds? I want to keep my flock as healthy as possible, learning a LOT from this thread.

I had 4 chicks at first, then added 3 more a week later. One had IB and everyone got sick. Said chick died, everyone else is still here.

I've added to my flock, but went with a local breeder hoping to improve my stock so we can hatch our own chicks in the future.

 

[Lady of McCamley]

@Lady of McCamley for clarification, when you say keep a diverse flock, do you mean grow out chicks, keep the strong and get rid of the weak in one breed? Or do you mean mix breeds? I want to keep my flock as healthy as possible, learning a LOT from this thread.

I had 4 chicks at first, then added 3 more a week later. One had IB and everyone got sick. Said chick died, everyone else is still here.

I've added to my flock, but went with a local breeder hoping to improve my stock so we can hatch our own chicks in the future.

By diverse I mean chicks same breed but from different lines, chicks of different breeds, chicks who have been vaccinated, chicks who are not vaccinated but have been bred for resistance.

That is so that your whole flick is not wiped out should a virulent strain hit. It insures you should still have some birds still standing for a restart at the end.

If you are truly breeding for resistance, having vaccinated carriers won't matter to the flock, but I don't breed from them as I want natural resistance.

 

[aart]

Great discussion thread!
I don't vaccinate or treat...just good feed, good population for space available.

 

[igorsMistress]

By diverse I mean chicks same breed but from different lines, chicks of different breeds, chicks who have been vaccinated, chicks who are not vaccinated but have been bred for resistance.

That is so that your whole flick is not wiped out should a virulent strain hit. It insures you should still have some birds still standing for a restart at the end.

If you are truly breeding for resistance, having vaccinated carriers won't matter to the flock, but I don't breed from them as I want natural resistance.

Thank you!