What's wrong with their feathers?

Heres a little interest for you girls...It origionated with the silkies feather by itself looke like your bird threw back to the origional bird in Chile, in no way crossed with silki happened on its own.Possibly and one side of the argument is that it was brought by polanisians that was in ancient times oriental origion, not a recent silkie cross.

There is another argument that it was not introduced by anyone, it occured in very ancient times when the land masses were connected..

According to Prado and Latcham, the Araucana originated from a blue Silkie plumaged, black skinned and rumpless fowl which layed blue eggs.

source
http://araucanabreeder.freeservers.com/photo4.html

GALLUS ARAUCANA GUATAMALENSIS OVIS TESTA VERDIS
Note : classification of this variwty must presently be left unclassified owing to the specimen;s extreme rarity and complete lack of information concerning character identification.

Scientists in spat over ancient chicken DNA

Posted Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:21am AEST

An argument centred on what came first to South America - the chicken or Columbus - has been ignited by a row over carbon dating and DNA of an ancient chicken bone.

In the latest issue of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, an international research group, rejects recent claims that chickens were first introduced into South America by Polynesians.

Co-author Professor Alan Cooper of the University of Adelaide says the debate over the origin of chickens in South America is important to understanding contact between early Americans and Polynesians.

One theory suggests they were introduced to South America by the Spanish conquistadors in the 15th century after the continent's "discovery" by Christopher Columbus.

However, a 2007 study by University of Auckland anthropologist Dr Alice Storey claims a chicken bone found in an archaeological site on the west coast of Chile proves pre-Columbian contact between Polynesians and indigenous South Americans.


Rare mutation

Dr Storey's team found the chicken bone, which they carbon dated to around 600 years old, carried a rare mutation similar to chicken bones found in two prehistoric sites in the Pacific: Mele Havea in Tonga, and an island in American Samoa.

However, Professor Cooper's team says the rare mutation is actually the most common genetic sequence found in chickens, called the "KFC" gene.

The group has shown this, he says, by using DNA data from 41 native Chilean chickens and comparing them with a publicly available database of 1000 domestic chicken sequences from across the world.

They also compared these with the published Chilean and Polynesian ancient DNA sequences.

"We consider the clustering of the modern Chilean chicken sequences with [groupings] predominant in Europe to indicate the contribution of Spanish-introduced chickens," they write.


'Controversial'

Professor Cooper says it would be "controversial" to use "the single pre-Columbian sequence" as evidence for a Polynesian origin for chickens as Dr Storey has done.

But the director of the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA says their analysis did reveal that ancient chicken remains from Easter Island had a DNA sequence that originated from Indonesia or the Philippines.

"The ancient Easter Island specimens are clearly pre-European ... indicating that this haplotype [or grouping] must form part of the original Polynesian/Pacific chicken dispersal," the team writes.

"Because Easter Island is commonly suggested as the key site to facilitate contact between Polynesian and South American cultures, it is significant that the common Easter Island haplotypes do not appear to have reached South America or have not survived into the modern day if they did so."

The group also raises questions about the accuracy of carbon dating used in the original study.

Professor Cooper says the site where the chicken bone was found at El Arenal in Chile was less than three kilometres from the sea.

He says Dr Storey and colleagues did not correct their carbon dating of the bone's age for possible marine carbon offset.

Marine carbon offset is the carbon embedded in the ocean and marine-derived foods.

They say the site where the bone was found had large shell middens suggesting the diet of the chicken was likely to contain materials from the ocean.

"If the diet of the El Arenal chicken included a marine carbon contribution of more than 20 per cent, the calibrated aged would be post-Columbian," Professor Cooper said.


New data supports original claim

Dr Storey rejects the group's assertions and stands by the age of the ancient El Arenal chicken bone.

"The date is consistent with other dates from the site which was abandoned before any European, or their chickens, ever set foot in the Americas," she said.

"There are no European artefacts at the site so no suggestion the dates should be later."

Dr Storey says she will soon publish supporting data based on two new chickens from the site.

"These show without any doubt there is no marine correction required," she said.

Dr Storey says it is common sense that chickens worldwide share some DNA sequences as all chickens were domesticated and originated in Asia.

"We would absolutely expect all chickens, everywhere in the world, to have an Indian/Asian genetic signature as all chickens must come from one of those places," she said.

"However, there was probably more than one region in which chickens were domesticated, like India, China or Thailand.

"This means that all chickens everywhere in the world have a mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) signature that relates back to their Asian great, great ... grandmothers, and those will differ depending on the domestication centre."

She says Dr Cooper's study shows the drawback of using only modern DNA to infer ancient or historic relationships.

"The maternal lineages [mtDNA] of domesticated animals have been manipulated by breeders for many years - so modern chickens are a mixed lot," she said.

"If you really want to understand what lineages are in a given place at any point in time, you need to study the ancient DNA from dated archaeological remains."
 
Last edited:
I never knew chicken lineage was such a compellingly controversial topic. Outside of BYC that is.
lol.png



Nice find.
 
I didnt know it either.

I have always had a facination with the animals of the eocene and miocene ect.... I dont own any of these EEs or blue egg layers. but also a facination with the and forgive my spelling the blue egg layers from south america, They have a particular look to them that other chickens dont have , the ones I saw at the fair looked almost like they were caught in evoloution look between a hawk and a chicken..then I started wondering what was the origion of this bird , was it a natural south american jungle fowl? or was it introduced... Everyone argues whos might be better but they are all genetically related..The spanish described it in thier writings on voyages so they had nothing to do with it, already long established befor they arrived.., and several people whom I spoken to all said the same thing, it was blue silkie feathered bird rumpless that laid bright blue eggs. Did this breed dissappear?? Does anyone have a photo ? If there are any left who keeps them?They all agree it was a wild bird at some point and natural selection allowed it to be pretty much disease free breed.
It was eventually bred into other local breeds listed in that article.

Its like looking into a window of time right in this forum , I dont think people grasp the importance , little like recreating the wooly mammoth only it happened by accident in someones back yard....The colors are probably wrong as described as a blue feather but hey too unique to complain about that . The origional breeder , if you can try to re-create this mating. the numbers are too low and need an outcross so searches for similar results. If nothing eles its sure is interesting

In color spectrum if you cross a yellowish brown egg layer with a blue egg layer the natural coloring of the next gen would be green.egg...yellow times blue equals green.

I was so facinated with the look of these chickens I started asking a lot of questions and researching a lot to try asnd find the origon .. all other breeds origionated from southeast asian jungle fowl but migrated the other direction toward europe but much much later in history than these birds.

The archeopteryx had a silkied feather and obviously he was prehistoric so was he the foundation or one like him to these silkied feather breeds

archeopteryx
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/birds/archie2.jpg

This bird was far older than archopteryx and had not yet developed the flight wing feathers and had hair like feathers.

http://www.newscientist.com/data/images/ns/cms/dn17855/dn17855-1_800.jpg
 
Last edited:
aveca, the information you quoted is interesting, but I'm unclear what it has to do with these particular birds. I'm sure most fanciers of Araucanas are familiar with the Dutch reference to "funny chickens with earrings", and tales of Magellan and Cabot - but your link does not provide any substance on the Silkie/Oriental/Arucana theory. I know, it says it right there on the page in bold, but isn't mentioned or clarified in any of the following text.

This is another great link for those intrigued by blue laying chickens, following their history from about 1914 to present: http://members.shaw.ca/Araucana/EArauHistory.htm

Quote:
The page you linked - the Old Blood page, has actual pictures of modern Colloncas, and Quetros. Granted these are modern pictures, but it's pretty much as good as you can get. Collonca de Artes was a cross of both, so that shouldn't be too hard to visualize. We have written descriptions of all three all over the internet and in books. I haven't seen newspaper images from the First World’s Poultry Congress (1921) or copies of 'Popular Breeds of Domestic Poultry' (1924) but I would imagine they would look extremely similar.

Quote:
An aside, there is no record of any South American chicken that has barb-less feathers. The Colloncas and Quetros all had smooth feathers.

Regarding Emus - there is a benefit and reason behind their feathers. We could go back and forth all day debating how and when emu feathers came to be how they are. That wouldn't a) be much fun since there is almost no actual evidence available to us as laypersons, and b) not the point at all. Emus live naturally in hot, dry, sunny climates. Their feathers have evolved to help them survive. Solar radiation is absorbed by the tips of the feathers, and their loose-packed inner plumage insulates the skin. The resultant heat is prevented from flowing to the skin by the insulation provided by the coat, allowing the bird to be active during the heat of the day. Another unique feature of the Emu feather is its double rachis emerging from a single shaft.
emu_feather.jpg


The fact that their feathers don't have barbs doesn't tie them in with Silkie chickens (h mutation) or the fr mutation. Unfortunately, time machines don't exist, and we can't simply go back and actually observe how things happened. We do know that Silkies were mentioned in Chinese medicinal texts from the Ming dynasty (~1400s), and again by Swiss Professor Konrad Gessner in 1555 in his 'Animal Book'. It is possible that a local smooth-feathered chicken in China was born with two copies of the h gene, causing barbule-less feathers and the owner found it interesting and started breeding more. We simply don't know with any certainty but educated guesses can be made.

Things in nature can change quite often, mutations are frequent. It's a matter of natural selection - if a frog is hatched with better vision than his brothers, he is at a biological advantage and is more likely to survive, mate, and pass that better vision along. If these birds are in fact a product of Fray (fr), I'm not sure the same 'beneficial' argument could be made if they lived in the wild. Domestic chickens are clearly at an advantage given that they live mostly predator free lives with an unlimited food source. It would be pretty hard to survive in the wild if you couldn't fly to your roosts like the rest of your species, and your feathers no longer kept you dry and warm.

Scientifically speaking, these birds have something 'wrong' with their feathers. Please don't misquote me here, I LOVE that they exist and am excited to hatch my own. This doesn't change the fact that their feathers are not like the rest of their species, in a way that has been speculated can even cause lowered hatch viability.
 
Last edited:
Your right, But its just strange to me that the other anomolies are missing like malformed feet, beaks internals ect.... Like I said I dont really know and its just an outside opinion but to me these birds are facinating.. You cant help notice the similarity between an ancient feather and these.. Its pretty astounding to me.

I have chickens throu not so natural selection are so heavy bodied that they have tough time flying into the coop roost too. So something wrong with the thought there too..

Think about it for one minute...the term """RUMPLESS""" This bird was a sort of a ground nester , historically described as hair like feathers, no need for the tail rudder no need t fly long way different predetors in its development .
have you ever been to Chile? Pretty darn dry , I think you might want to take a close look. they find mummies there today wrapped in bundles.
Chinchorro Mummies
The mummies of the Chinchorros have been found near the border of present-day Peru and Chile along the Pacific coast. The principal towns between which the mummies have been found are Ilo (Peru) to Arica, Iquique, and Antofagasta (all Chile). The mummies appear to have been made first in the area around Arica.
http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocator/group/chinchchild.gif
The Chinchorros may well have been the first people in the world to practice mummification. They preserved their dead beginning about 5000 B.C., reaching a peak in 3000 B.C.--around the same time that the Egyptians began experimenting with mummification.

Im not right, Im asking who honestly knows the origions of this bird? Probably someone in south america knows a lot more than we do.

I read a lot about who is right, and whos are better, but who really knows what they origionated from? Because I am so interested in the subject

Im a casual observer and the min I saw these birds, I thought Wow they threw back into a window of time..How do you know for sure they didnt? Its not an insult, its a compliment in case you may have misunderstood. You dont know and I dont know for sure. We can only wonder and speculate... if the origional bird was rumpless, and silkie feathered as described by people who actually handel them .. Does anyone really know? Im all ears, Or I mean eyes.

Perhaps there is something wrong with thier feathers and perhaps there isnt. maybe they threw back to an early ancestor.. Is it bad? Dont know...guess you will find out...are they pretty robust? so far they seem to be, you see so many birds not thrive in here these seem to be doing overall aswell as if not better than everyone elses. You might be on the cusp of something important, and yu might not.To me its a little like a person born with too much hair all over or a super heavy eye brow , or huge canine teeth its an anomoly but from where?
 
Last edited:
Quote:
Where has this been historically described? Can you please provide a source? I've never seen a reference online or in any books describing the South American blue layers as having hair like feathers. I've only seen that description for Silkie type chickens from China (which if you are claiming that the Oriental Silkie birds made their way into Chile - your links have not proven or even discussed that possibility. Perhaps you linked a different article by mistake?)

Aveca, I'm not saying you are wrong either, I wish we could discuss and question these birds without people taking it as an insult or a fight.

We do (for the most part) know the origins of these birds though (I am assuming you mean the Araucana / SA blue layers here). They have been documented since the early 1500s, and these historical notes are mentioned by the same links you've posted. The same goes for the Silkies. True, I cannot create a family tree for the birds in my backyard linking them to a parent bird in the 1500s. No one can. But I don't think that's what you are trying to get at.

I'm afraid I just don't know what point you are tying to make with your speculating.
 
No we are talking like little adults not screaming children here.

I posted the sources above and is there or are there not a version of rumpless auracunas? I have been seeing them time and again in here unless Im wrong. there is a subspecies here that lays blue eggs and is rumpless.

Here is one source of scientific papers of the book authors from above post

According to Prado and Latcham, the Araucana originated from a blue Silkie plumaged, black skinned and rumpless fowl which layed blue eggs.
These are south american scientists researching the origions of this bird.. that is what the above debate was about. did it occure in south america or was it introduced through the above to easter island ect...
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom