/where do you order seeds/plants?

[Peaches Lee]

Heirloom seeds are "pure" seeds and have had no crossbreeding with other plants

I think I have finally figured out the problem. The bolded sentence is what all the hoopla is about I believe. I was trying to give this person a short version answer of what heirloom seeds are. And what I wrote was not meant to mean there were no crossing ever, but there is no crossing now.

 

[erinszoo]

I guess I just find myself scratching my head at your posts. I suppose how I see heirloom vegetables is how I see purebred horses.

Back in the day (let's say 1800) some farmers wanted *insert desired trait here* so they found horses that closely resembled those traits. They bred these horses and kept records by establishing a stud book. They kept the desired foals that reached close to the desired outcome and took notes on what didn't work. They added new blood and crossed lines and even line bred and once they finally found the "perfect" horse that produced itself with high heritability, they closed their studbooks and did not allow new blood in, making the breed PURE. This process is how I view heirloom plants. After so many years of not letting new genes in, the plants are considered pure.

I totally agree with you that when, for example, someone in Jefferson's age was playing around with their plants genetics that THEN those mixed plants were not pure or heirloom, but once they essentially "closed" their books so to speak, what we can enjoy today is that heirloom they created.

But, I will say that, yes, the topic of heirlooms in the garden is a very debated concept.

The bolded text is actually where the problem is. These seeds were never and have never been grown in a sterile laboratory where they could become "pure". No one ever "closed" the books so to speak. Plant reproduction is not like animal reproduction and has a lot more elements of chance in it ... unless you grow things in a bubble you can't say anything is truly going to reproduce "pure" offspring.

For example ... last year I ordered a long red Chinese bean from Baker Creek who supposedly sells only heirloom seeds. Overall we were happy with them 1) because they grew throughout the insanely hot weather we had here and 2) they were pretty abundant. However, in our packet of seeds, which all looked exactly the same and produced identical plants, about half of the plants produced long green beans not red like they were supposed to be. We also grew three different kinds of melons from Baker Creek. ONE of those melons actually produced the melon it was supposed to produce ... the other two produced odd crosses of other melons. One of them was so off it wasn't even remotely like what the parent seeds were supposed to have been from.

So, here you have a seed company, no better or worse than any other, who promotes that they ONLY sell heirloom seeds and yet their seeds don't produce "pure" offspring.

My point being in all of this back and forth is that while there is a BIG difference between heirlooms and GMO's, there really isn't enough difference or distinction between hybrids and heirlooms to make anyone choose one over the other. Nuff said.

 

[celticgarden]

I'm a fan of Fedco seeds - they are in Maine. I placed the majority of my seed order there this year. I've ordered from many others, I stick to companies with ethics that align with mine. Organic when possible,

I've used Johnny's, Terretorial, peaceful valley (groworganic.com), seeds of change, seedsavers, Pine Tree, Cooks. I've ordered large quantity flowers seeds from Eden Brothers, great germination. I like to direct sow marigolds and bachelors buttons. Small packets just don't cut it then.

I've used growitalian.com but decided many of their veggies might be better suited for mediterranean climates.

I've ordered herbs from Richters (Canada). Herb seeds from the Thyme garden.

underwoodgardens.com looks interesting.

One thing I find these days, order early if you want to have the pick of varieties. With renewed interest in veggie gardens some seeds sell out!

 

[Peaches Lee]

The bolded text is actually where the problem is. These seeds were never and have never been grown in a sterile laboratory where they could become "pure". No one ever "closed" the books so to speak. Plant reproduction is not like animal reproduction and has a lot more elements of chance in it ... unless you grow things in a bubble you can't say anything is truly going to reproduce "pure" offspring.

For example ... last year I ordered a long red Chinese bean from Baker Creek who supposedly sells only heirloom seeds. Overall we were happy with them 1) because they grew throughout the insanely hot weather we had here and 2) they were pretty abundant. However, in our packet of seeds, which all looked exactly the same and produced identical plants, about half of the plants produced long green beans not red like they were supposed to be. We also grew three different kinds of melons from Baker Creek. ONE of those melons actually produced the melon it was supposed to produce ... the other two produced odd crosses of other melons. One of them was so off it wasn't even remotely like what the parent seeds were supposed to have been from.

So, here you have a seed company, no better or worse than any other, who promotes that they ONLY sell heirloom seeds and yet their seeds don't produce "pure" offspring.

My point being in all of this back and forth is that while there is a BIG difference between heirlooms and GMO's, there really isn't enough difference or distinction between hybrids and heirlooms to make anyone choose one over the other. Nuff said.

Oh yes, I agree that with companies, like Baker Creek, that do not bag and hand pollinate their plants, you run the risk of having hybrid plants. But, if you were for example to grow only one plant from the squash family, the bean family etc. and open pollinate (instead of bagging flowers) you would still have a high probability of having "pure" seed. The idea of heirloom is to have the same thing over and over for generations. I have often wondered too, if the wrong seeds end up in the wrong packets....

 

[Arielle]

DId anyone mention Sand Hill Preservation?? You can find them on line.

 

[keesmom]

DId anyone mention Sand Hill Preservation?? You can find them on line.

Not yet. While they are online you need to order from them through the mail (for those who don't know).

I usually order from FEDCO, Pinetree (love the smaller packets and reasonable prices), Seed Savers Exchange, Bountiful Gardens and Sand Hill. Occasionally from Baker Creek and Johnny's.