Which 2 of these 3 Cream Legbar roosters should be my breeding roosters?

[ChickenLoverz123]

The following areas should be considered in their respective order. 1) Vigor 2) Utilities 3) Type 4) Color

I. Vigor:
a) Head Points: #1's head points look better on him than #2 with the eys a little closer to the front of the skull, less sunken in, and more forward-facing. His skull also has more depth than #2. #3 is about as good as #1 with the eye placement but does not have as much depth to the skull.

b) Fleshing on breast: #1 & #2 look

to have a straight line in the profile from the apex of the breast to the thighs. #3 looks to have a concave line from in the profile from the apex of the breast to the thighs. Some of the views of #2 show a slight concave too. A well-fleshed breast will have to straight line of concave lines.

c) Wing Set: #1's wings are way too loose. Birds with good vigor hold them up tight with all the tips pointing to the vents. #2 is not as loose as #1 but still doesn't have the tips pointing to the vents. #3 is about equl to #2.

There are lots of points on vigor that can not be evaluated from photos but on Head points, it would be 1,3,2. On the breast, it would be 1, 2, 3. The wings it would be 3, 2, 1. So...no clear winner can be made based on vigor.

II. Utilities - There isn't any clear conclusion that can be made from photos on utilities either so we can't use that as the tiebreaker from the dead heat on vigor.

III. Type -

Back: The backs look equal on all of these guys. They are all downwardly sloping and are all free from curves and all have good lengths.

Breast: We already look at these from a vigor standpoint and for type we are looking for the same things. They should be well rounded with no straight lines and the apex coming forward past the tip of the beak.

Tail: The tail angle of #1 looks to be about 60 degrees with the horizon which is acceptable. # 2 and #3 almost don't have enough tail to see their angles, but #2 looks light a higher angle, 75 degees(?) and #3 possibly 65 degree(?). The ideal for the breed is 45 degrees and higher angles relate to production/utility losses but we won't consider that since utilities were skipped over. White fluff at the junction of the tail and back and sharp angles at the tail and back should be avoided. All of these look to have the white fluff and all of them appear to have the angle rather than a smooth transition from the back to the tail with no sharp angles.

Earlobes: None of these have solid white ear lobes. The one with the most white is #2. #1 and #3 both have more red on the ear lobe than white. They should be pendant type ear lobes that hang down and away from the face. These look to have the correct type. Some get ear lobes that are round rather than the elongated pendant shape and some stay flat on the face rather than hanging away from the face.

Crests: The crests are not very flashy on the Legbar males and are something that needs to be improved in the breed. The goal at this point is for the crest to be highly visible. I am struggling to see the crest on all of these. It looks like they are there but laying down and getting washed in with the neck hackles. So the crests can't be evaluated from the photos either.

Combs: I think #3 has the best comb followed by #2 then #1.

Legs: The shanks all look to be about the same width, They all have good height with the thighs showing in the silhouette.

So for the type, we have 1, 3, 2 for the tail, 2, 1, 3 for the earlobes, and 3, 2, 1 for the comb.

I think I would go ahead and choose an area to work on with type and choose the one that is the best in that area and keep focusing on that area every year until it is the strength in your line rather than a weakness. Then I would go to another area and work on it for a few years doing the same thing. I think the earlobes are the place that I would start. All of these guys had red showing on the ear lobe and two of them that red is more of the ear lobe that the area that is white. If you use #2 make sure that the hens in your flock also get culled very hard for ear lobe color. You want to get to 100% white for the ear lobes and aren't going to get there if you do not breed both males and females that are at the top 10% in the flock for the most white area on the ear lobes. All of these guys have a lot of faults and you can really only work on improving one thing at a time. White ear lobes, strong wings, 45 deg tail angles with no sharp junction or white fluff showing, more visible crests, Erect bombs, well-rounded breasts, etc.

My top three to work on would be white earlobes, strong wings, and erect combs/visible crest (I put crests and combs together because they are linked together. Large crests can cause bend combs so you have to work on these two at the same time).

Wow thanks for putting in time to write that all! That is very helpful! Thank you so much!!!

Yep they definitely have a lot of improvements to make, and hopefully they grow back their tails. They do have nice long backs and good combs. The pullets I am growing out have nice crests, they are #1’s daughters. Here’s one of them.

 

[GaryDean26]

Okay well I don’t know if he really sloughes he just looked a little funny while he was walking. It’s like his legs are too long for his body, but after all the feedback it sounds like he is better than #1. I originally wanted to keep #1 because he was the rooster that was in my breeding pen that was giving me White Legbars.

At first glance, I didn't like #1 because of the bending comb. Then I started to look closer at the head points, etc he started to look a lot better. Do you have the three of these cockerels penned together? If so which one is the top of the pecking order? Which on is the bottom? I am guessing that #1 is higher than #3 on the pecking order.

I say go with your gut feeling because while evaluating birds from photos can be a good exercise in identifying faults that may be otherwise overlooked it is no substitution for evaluating a live bird. You can see so much more on a live bird and should put the gut feelings over any on-line feedback you get from a photo.

Cockerels with long legs can develop weak hocks. After two years their knees swell and they have a hard time walking and it even can prohibit them from breeding. If he is walking funny know if could get worse with time. Watch to see if he is walking flat-footed (bad) or if he is walking on the tips of his toes (good).

In 2018 I set up a pen of White Hens and then put my favorite cockerel in it to see if he would throw white offspring or not (I wanted a cockerel who was NOT throwing white sports). Well...cockerel #1, cockerel #2, and cockerel #3 all produced white sports. Cockerel #4 didn't produce white sports and so he is the one I kept to breed. I was taught that as uniformity increased quality increases so I wanted to get 100% cream from my Cream Legbars pens, 100% crele from a crele pen, and 100% white from a white pen. So after spending a breeding season trying to prove out a cockerel that doesn't throw white sports I find it ironic that other would prefer a white carrier for their breeding pen. If you have a good line and want white though, then there is nothing wrong with breeding for the sports.

 

[GaryDean26]

Wow thanks for putting in time to write that all! That is very helpful! Thank you so much!!!

Yep they definitely have a lot of improvements to make, and hopefully they grow back their tails. They do have nice long backs and good combs. The pullets I am growing out have nice crests, they are #1’s daughters. Here’s one of them.
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Ahh...Dark Crested Females. My foundation stock all has solid white earlobes so ear lobes were not something I paid attention to the first year. Then the second year passed and in the 3rd year I made the realizations that almost everyone in the flock had red on the ear lobe. I thought, "How long had that been happening?". My had been culling all the dark crested hens and just keeping the ones with the cream-colored crests, but my only hen in the breeding flock with good ear lobs was a dark crested hen. So I breed her to improve ear lobes. So for the past few years all of my birds with good ear lobes have been dark crested and all my cream crested birds have been getting red on their ear lobes. This year I am seeing pullets with shite ear lobs and cream crest. I always associate these dark-colored pullets with solid white earlobes when I see them though. Since your boys are all getting red on the ear lobes I am guessing that you are getting dark crested females with red on the ear lobes too. Is that correct, or do you get solid white ear lobes on these dark crested hens like I do?

 

[ChickenLoverz123]

Ahh...Dark Crested Females. My foundation stock all has solid white earlobes so ear lobes were not something I paid attention to the first year. Then the second year passed and in the 3rd year I made the realizations that almost everyone in the flock had red on the ear lobe. I thought, "How long had that been happening?". My had been culling all the dark crested hens and just keeping the ones with the cream-colored crests, but my only hen in the breeding flock with good ear lobs was a dark crested hen. So I breed her to improve ear lobes. So for the past few years all of my birds with good ear lobes have been dark crested and all my cream crested birds have been getting red on their ear lobes. This year I am seeing pullets with shite ear lobs and cream crest. I always associate these dark-colored pullets with solid white earlobes when I see them though. Since your boys are all getting red on the ear lobes I am guessing that you are getting dark crested females with red on the ear lobes too. Is that correct, or do you get solid white ear lobes on these dark crested hens like I do?

Here is some of my hens. These pictures were taken last winter but you can see all of them have white earlobes. These hens definitely lay bigger eggs than my other CL hens that I had, so that’s good. Also these hens and all the roosters that I have are actually from you. I bought from the pen that had the pure bred Cream Legbars. I think the other pen the rooster was split for Crele I requested eggs from that one pen only because I didn’t want any Crele.

The last pic is the roosters. I don’t remember if they are #1, #2 and #3. I think 2 are but the third one died.

 

[ChickenLoverz123]

At first glance, I didn't like #1 because of the bending comb. Then I started to look closer at the head points, etc he started to look a lot better. Do you have the three of these cockerels penned together? If so which one is the top of the pecking order? Which on is the bottom? I am guessing that #1 is higher than #3 on the pecking order.

I say go with your gut feeling because while evaluating birds from photos can be a good exercise in identifying faults that may be otherwise overlooked it is no substitution for evaluating a live bird. You can see so much more on a live bird and should put the gut feelings over any on-line feedback you get from a photo.

Cockerels with long legs can develop weak hocks. After two years their knees swell and they have a hard time walking and it even can prohibit them from breeding. If he is walking funny know if could get worse with time. Watch to see if he is walking flat-footed (bad) or if he is walking on the tips of his toes (good).

In 2018 I set up a pen of White Hens and then put my favorite cockerel in it to see if he would throw white offspring or not (I wanted a cockerel who was NOT throwing white sports). Well...cockerel #1, cockerel #2, and cockerel #3 all produced white sports. Cockerel #4 didn't produce white sports and so he is the one I kept to breed. I was taught that as uniformity increased quality increases so I wanted to get 100% cream from my Cream Legbars pens, 100% crele from a crele pen, and 100% white from a white pen. So after spending a breeding season trying to prove out a cockerel that doesn't throw white sports I find it ironic that other would prefer a white carrier for their breeding pen. If you have a good line and want white though, then there is nothing wrong with breeding for the sports.

I think it’s cool that they have a recessive gene for White. #1 is the alpha, #3 is the top dog over #2.

 

[ChickenLoverz123]

Also I just checked and the hens earlobes have red on them, but last year they didn’t.

 

[ChickenLoverz123]

I have decided to sell #3. His posture is what’s getting me. He looks slouched compared to the others, and also has really long legs that don’t really fit him. #1 also has more of a crest then him.

 

[GaryDean26]

The earlobes look okay in the photos above. I like the photos. Legbars are a pretty breed.

 

[ChickenLoverz123]

The earlobes look okay in the photos above. I like the photos. Legbars are a pretty breed.

Yeah but since then they’ve gotten more red on their earlobes. Is that normal? Those pictures were from January I think. So in 8 months their earlobes have a lot more red on them.

 

[ChickenLoverz123]

The earlobes look okay in the photos above. I like the photos. Legbars are a pretty breed.

They are very pretty birds! Definitely one of my favorites hands down.