Won't the USA ever learn?????? A little world history

[Dunkopf]

Actually, I just did some reading up on Col Ghadafi. Prior to 2003 he was a strong supporter of any kind of revolution type organizations. After reading about him I remember quite clearly about him in the 80's. I was in the Army when they bombed that disco and Reagan tried to kill him with an AF strike when they found leads to him tying him to that disco. We lost a number of troops there as I remember.

So he was always a bad guy. Well in 2003 he finally agreed to take responsibility for sponsoring the Lochurbie bombing and he paid a bunch of money to the victims families. So Bush took him off the axis of evil list. Right wing radio used the settlement as an example that we were scaring all the bad boys into towing the line.

I'm looking at the bigger picture with history as a guide. With the events of 9-11 as well as all the stuff we have been involved in to secure our future oil use. We were pre-destined to be in our current position. We are too dependent on oil to do anything else. I know that alternative energies are too costly and don't have the potential that a lot of people claim. We're pretty much stuck on the path we're on until alternatives can be built and put in to economic use. In other words when oil cost us so much that the alternatives would be cheaper to invest in. We're stuck. We will have to maintain a strong presence for at least another 25 years. I can't really blame it on the Republicans or big money anymore. Obviously big money is making a killing, but it's the price of our existence.

Being former military I do have a lot of respect for the guys over there. I know all the stuff they have to put up with just being under arms. I can't truly imagine what it's like to actually come under fire though. Believe me I spent a lot of time contemplating it while I was in though. The Cold War was pretty real for us. I'm glad they never decided to come over. There would have been close to a million dead between losses on both sides and civilian deaths. Of course that's probably why it never happened.

As for the policy changes. Every thing the military has done in the past 30 years has been designed to reduce casualties of Americans. When there are large casualties, people lose their taste for it. How many were lost on D day. Wasn't it around 60,000 or so? Could you imagine losing as many as were lost in the major battles during WWI and WWII? As long as they can keep the numbers down and the draft out of the picture. They will be able to keep it going.

They seem to have Iran pretty stable now. Of course they have their own security troops now. They're still on the edge though. Could you imagine living in a society where every time you send your kid to the corner market, it might be the last time you see them?

We take a lot for granted here.

 

[Steve_of_sandspoultry]

Quote:
How many body bags have come home with sand on them? Do you know the total count now? Not one US life is worth that whole sand pile.

I am a vet..... and that is my "chime in"

Steve

 

[I have WHAT in my yard?]

I am not hearing from people here or that are still there that we "lost" in Afghanistan, just that we are not winning.

We are at a useless stalemate. We have made a positive difference there, but the longer we are there the more damage we do to our reputation. As occupiers we are one of those guests that is welcome when they arrive, but after a little while they just want us to leave.

We change tactics and lose ground and do something that works and change tactics again.....

 

[Ridgerunner]

I haven't really heard what a "win" is in Afghanistan. I have my opinion. We leave a situation where the government is not aiding and abetting people that hijack planes and fly them into our buildings, killing thousands of people. I don't see a good way to accomplish that.

According to our democratic principles we have to leave how they set their government up to their self-determination. A big problem there is that people around there often vote with guns, not at the ballot box. How does that saying go, you win more friends with a gun and a smile that just with a smile. Something like that.

As a vet from another era, I understand why we are there. If someone sneaks up on you and attacks you from ambush, you fight back. I never saw a reason to go into Iraq, but I understand why we are in Afghanistan. I just don't know how to get out.

I worked for three years in a country a little to the north of them. They are a proud, independent, self-reliant people. These are the type of people that, when Stalin forced them on collective farms, they slaughtered their herds instead of giving them to Stalin, although that was a very dangerous step at the time. If we are seen as the occupier here, we cannot win unless we leave something as brutal as we found. That's not a win either, to me.

 

[seedcorn]

Interesting view. It's too bad the people in charge don't understand, unless you kill all, it'll never be over. Killing all is impossible. We are now in the feud. I understand going after individuals but invading countries, doesn't make sense. If I'm mad at someone, I don't bomb the town he is in.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Agree. Killing all is not an option. The idea is to leave behind something strong enough to keep the rest under control, but leaving something behind strong enough is real hard without leaving a brutal dictator behind. I anticipate when we leave, we won't like what we leave behind.

I think the original strategy was flawed. They did not look at the consequences of their action. Now we cannot win without really occupying the country for a long time, and that involves a lot of money and a lot of American lives. I don't think there is the political will for that nor do I think there should be.

If we had concentrated on Afghanistan, including shutting off the money supply to them, instead of getting distracted in Iraq, we may have had a chance. Now, I don't see it.

 

[Talihofarms]

Quote:
How many body bags have come home with sand on them? Do you know the total count now? Not one US life is worth that whole sand pile.

I am a vet..... and that is my "chime in"

Steve

I can remember a certain congressman saying "This War is Lost" not only was he wrong,, but he darn near lost re-election.
Soldiers are not polatician.
As a former US employee, I assume you volunteered.
The last time I checked, the draft was used, back in the Viet Nam era.
You sound a bit salty about your time collecting a government paycheck.
I can go to bed at night knowing that tommarow, When I get up, I will be able to have a little coffee, get my self ready for work.

May be go outside and play with my chickens.

Do all those things knowing that there a few dedicated individuals who don't care what other people think.
Performing a job in places where many times they are not welcome.
A job that they volunteered for, I might add.
Taking a fight thousands of miles from my back door.

I like it much better when the bad guys are hiding in caves thousands of miles away.
Because, as sure as Death and Taxes.

If they were in my back yard... Here in the U.S.
They wouldn't think twice, about forcing me watch them kill my entire family. Then according to their beliefs, tie my hands behind my back, and finish by cutting my head off.

Just like a "Chicken".

As far as the body count question.
I don't know.



Can you tell me what the body count would be if the Military didn't do anything?
The war is still on.

 

[welsummerchicks]

I think the world is a very complicated place, and no, actually, I think that the many different conflicts listed here, have very little in common. We have to look at each situation.

And that no, actually, some conflicts will never entirely go away, because the situation is just inherently unstable.

I am very grateful to our servicemen and servicewomen. They do what our leaders feel needs to be done. Whether our leaders in hind sight are called right or wrong, they are there, ready to die for their country.

There just isn't anything that I can find, to debate about our service people. Our service people, they are incredible, incredible people, every one of them, simply for the choice they make to try and do something like that. I sit there and bawl my eyes out every time I see a commercial with people in a public place, applauding our service people as they pass by. When I think about how service people were treated when they came back from Viet Nam, I feel ashamed of the people who did that.

Even so, I am against war, against violence, against killing, against spending billions in a foreign country. Even so, I still feel there are times we have to, and I also realize that I don't usually hear all the facts involved in that decision.

And it isn't always a heroe's death, either. My friend (lived in those countries) told me more service people got killed walking down the street off duty, than they did in combat, during many periods of the Afghan conflict.

In fact, I think as time goes on and we move away from 'nations' and more to 'economic unions', we will see far fewer 'big conflicts' with definite starts and ends(and obvious heroes and bad guys), and much more like what we see now...things that dribble along, rarely entirely resolved, complex situations that really have no easy solution.

 

[easttxchick]

Quote:
How many body bags have come home with sand on them? Do you know the total count now? Not one US life is worth that whole sand pile.

I am a vet..... and that is my "chime in"

Steve

I can remember a certain congressman saying "This War is Lost" not only was he wrong,, but he darn near lost re-election.
Soldiers are not polatician.
As a former US employee, I assume you volunteered.
The last time I checked, the draft was used, back in the Viet Nam era.
You sound a bit salty about your time collecting a government paycheck.
I can go to bed at night knowing that tommarow, When I get up, I will be able to have a little coffee, get my self ready for work.

May be go outside and play with my chickens.

Do all those things knowing that there a few dedicated individuals who don't care what other people think.
Performing a job in places where many times they are not welcome.
A job that they volunteered for, I might add.
Taking a fight thousands of miles from my back door.

I like it much better when the bad guys are hiding in caves thousands of miles away.
Because, as sure as Death and Taxes.

If they were in my back yard... Here in the U.S.
They wouldn't think twice, about forcing me watch them kill my entire family. Then according to their beliefs, tie my hands behind my back, and finish by cutting my head off.

Just like a "Chicken".

As far as the body count question.
I don't know.



Can you tell me what the body count would be if the Military didn't do anything?
The war is still on.

Thank you for your service! If it weren't for people like you, I wouldn't have the oppurtunities and freedoms that I have-and neither would the people in Afghanistan.

 

[darkmatter]

I don't have the answer, but someone somewhere speaks the truth and the internet has it. I think the evolution of information distribution via a worldwide access will be changing human culture greater then the invention of fire, the wheel, or the printing press. People (politicians, revolutionists, and even freedom fighters) when placed in power, tend to seek more power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. What we're seeing is just the beginning of an unstoppable Juggernaut of dis-satisfied people wanting what life promises.