You might want to read this, Up date go down to new topic.

[Narragansett]

Quote:

IMO, many owe their survival to organizations such as the ALBC and organizations like them

Is the ALBC breeding these breeds? NO! So how is the ALBC doing more for the breed that a good breeder?

I was a member of the ALBC and found that there are far more organizations, groups and clubs that are doing more for these breeds than ALBC could ever do.

Let take the R.I. Red, the ALBC lists it as recovering, its recovering?
For the past few years the Single Comb Rhode Island Red large fowl has been called a very rare breed of poultry and during the winter months you might be able to count 200 adult birds and during the summer months maybe there will be a thousand birds in the USA. That's very rare, now the Rose Comb Rhode Island Red may have only about 50 adult birds during the winter months. These numbers changed very little if at all over the past few years. So I ask you how is this recovering? (These numbers are of non-hatchery standard bred fowl)

You would think that the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy would try to know a little more about the breeds that they are trying to preserve.


Chris​

I'm glad to see that someone else hasn't fallen for the rhetoric and the propaganda put out by ALBC. I too used to be a member, for years. In some ways they are a great organization, and they do a lot of good for the promotion of rare breeds, but they are mainly a think tank, a philosophical group whose philosophy isn't always grounded in reality. I'm not saying that shows are the be all and end all of poultrydom. Indeed, they are only a very small segment, but if ALBC would visit just one large show, their priority lists would get blown out of the water. Their surveys are extremely biased and unscientific. They survey only limited segments of the poultry breeding world, and then proclaim breeds to be rare based on the skewed results. Some of their proclamations are based on only a single "expert's" say so, usually one who has a commercial interest in seeing a breed touted as being endangered, such as a hatchery operator who is the only commercial source of a breed, or a heritage breed farmer who has a market cornered in a heritage breed's products. In some cases they ignore documented evidence of a breed which has existed for centuries, because they are limited commercially, yet they promote another breed which has been created only in the last few decades, because one of their supporters sells it and claims it be ols and rare, with no documentation whatsoever prior to his first breeding it. ALBC does put out a lot of good material. I own a lot of their publications. Some better than others, but a few are excellent.

 

[rancher hicks]

Quote:

IMO, many owe their survival to organizations such as the ALBC and organizations like them

Is the ALBC breeding these breeds? NO! So how is the ALBC doing more for the breed that a good breeder?

I was a member of the ALBC and found that there are far more organizations, groups and clubs that are doing more for these breeds than ALBC could ever do.

Let take the R.I. Red, the ALBC lists it as recovering, its recovering?
For the past few years the Single Comb Rhode Island Red large fowl has been called a very rare breed of poultry and during the winter months you might be able to count 200 adult birds and during the summer months maybe there will be a thousand birds in the USA. That's very rare, now the Rose Comb Rhode Island Red may have only about 50 adult birds during the winter months. These numbers changed very little if at all over the past few years. So I ask you how is this recovering? (These numbers are of non-hatchery standard bred fowl)

You would think that the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy would try to know a little more about the breeds that they are trying to preserve.


Chris​

I'm glad to see that someone else hasn't fallen for the rhetoric and the propaganda put out by ALBC. I too used to be a member, for years. In some ways they are a great organization, and they do a lot of good for the promotion of rare breeds, but they are mainly a think tank, a philosophical group whose philosophy isn't always grounded in reality. I'm not saying that shows are the be all and end all of poultrydom. Indeed, they are only a very small segment, but if ALBC would visit just one large show, their priority lists would get blown out of the water. Their surveys are extremely biased and unscientific. They survey only limited segments of the poultry breeding world, and then proclaim breeds to be rare based on the skewed results. Some of their proclamations are based on only a single "expert's" say so, usually one who has a commercial interest in seeing a breed touted as being endangered, such as a hatchery operator who is the only commercial source of a breed, or a heritage breed farmer who has a market cornered in a heritage breed's products. In some cases they ignore documented evidence of a breed which has existed for centuries, because they are limited commercially, yet they promote another breed which has been created only in the last few decades, because one of their supporters sells it and claims it be ols and rare, with no documentation whatsoever prior to his first breeding it. ALBC does put out a lot of good material. I own a lot of their publications. Some better than others, but a few are excellent.



I can hardly argue with your statements since you've given no reference to where or how you got them.

However I will say this, when I first started with Delaware, I could not find anyone in NYS that had any. One farm site that I contacted in the state, said they're were no longer working with them. I had a hard time finding a rooster for the three hatchery hens I had. Which by the way, were not hardy and have all died. However I managed to find a rooster and four hens in WNY and they are the ones I'm working with now. I do have a rooster and a hen from Speckled hen.

Also at the NYS fair for two fairs the Delaware shown were not of good quality and I in fact posted pictures as proof on this very forum. Four birds does not mean a breed is not rare. Two other non fair shows did not have one single Delaware. Does this mean they are rare nationwide certainly not. However as far as I know unless folks help the ALBC by giving them information on what they have , how will they know? What's more the ALBC works with more than just poultry. Which you can see when visiting their web page.

There will always be those who disagree and some who are just contrary about everything. The basis for my original post is one I've read in Practical Poultry magazine many times, which is where I got the information. If you disagree take it up with them.

For me I have, had experience with show dogs, and cavies before having chickens. I don't show for the fact that many, not all , in the show circles are not nice people. My experience has been that these not nice people are more of a discouragement than an encouragement. Which of course seems to be the case with poultry as well.

If you disagree with my original post, your entitled, but it won't make you right.

Signing off ,

Rancher

 

[Chris09]

rancher hicks,
You can see some of the ALBC's misleading information right on there home page.

Quote:
Wouldn't the pioneer organizations in the U.S. be the breed club and then the APA?

Chris

 

[rancher hicks]

My purpose for this posting was to share information from what I've read with those who can not afford to buy Practical poultry mag and others.

So here's what I have now. Hope you read it.

This concerned waterers and freezing.

It was suggested that you use a "Seedling mat" under your waterers to keep them from freezing. These things are for under those trays that you start seeds in, in the spring. The pic shows a Plastic waterer sitting on one of these type mats.

Now I was thinking , I wonder if a "heating pad" wrapped around a 5 gallon bucket set on low would be warm enough to keep it from freezing. I was thinking is using a bungee cord to hold it in place.

Next up, concerns about winter cold in zone 4 and below. Here is Don Schriders response to this.
Open air pens were used in Utah and the Dakotas in the late 20's and early 30's. What they found was that when they opened the southern wall of the chickens house and screened it with wire, frost bite in the flock stopped. This was due to ammonia being wicked away and even more so the moisture from the birds themselves. The shelters were designed to provide a wind break and to keep the rain and snow off the birds. At one time folks would attach a "scratching shed" to the side of the hen house. a scratching shed is an addition that has a roof and sides and one open front. It has a dirt floor and you put a good bit of straw in it. The idea is to feed your scratch grains in the shed so that the birds get exercise as they work tot find the grain. The open front helps keep moisture out of the air, as well as dust and ammonia.

Next, Egg bound hens , comes this advice. " I have found that putting the hen in a dark, ventilated box or carrier, alone in a quiet place works well. I find that lessening the stress works 9 times out of 10 for my hens. Leave the bird alone with just water (that they can't spill) for at least a few hours before you check on her. Sometimes it takes over night. - Janet Chase.

This information is take it or leave it. I'm just sharing what I've read. If you have other ideas fine but please don't try to debate with me on it. I just think this information might be useful to some others.

Next time I'll share some from PP mag.

Thanks

Rancher

Thanks

 

[seminolewind]

Rancher, thanks for sharing the articles.
re: show breeding vs. utility breeding-----Would breeding for longevity improve a breed? I had a BO who was an egg laying machine, but she died of heart failure at the age of 3.

 

[rancher hicks]

Quote:
I personally think "hardiness" is very important. Some birds just drop over at the sight of my mother in law.

You get the idea though. Some birds are susceptible and sickly like me. I get a cold just hearing the word cold, where as some other people are never sick. I never breed a bird who has gotten sick and then recovered. It doesn't mean I let them die, I just don't breed from them later.

I really like these two publications and they have saved me many a trouble. It's where I get most of the information I share.

Take care,

Rancher

 

[galanie]

Quote:
I personally think "hardiness" is very important. Some birds just drop over at the sight of my mother in law.

You get the idea though. Some birds are susceptible and sickly like me. I get a cold just hearing the word cold, where as some other people are never sick. I never breed a bird who has gotten sick and then recovered. It doesn't mean I let them die, I just don't breed from them later.

I really like these two publications and they have saved me many a trouble. It's where I get most of the information I share.

Take care,

Rancher

I agree with you there for sure, Rancher. I have two right now that I really wanted to breed, but because of health issues that have popped up, I won't.

 

[al6517]

Quote:
I think using publications is a good guideline for evaluating the quality of your birds, but one must be very hands on with their breed and know by experience through extensive handling the finer points, strengths & weaknesses and spend many hours looking at other birds in the breed, instead of just quoting from a book. I think it's a terrible idea to confront a show judge and ask him if he knows what he's looking for in a breed, and to question his ability while you say I READ !! that the bird should ....... from some obscure publication. That is why exhibitors are not allowed to enter the isle when the birds are being judged to avoid any confrontations, and by confronting a judge with that kind of attitude will be a sure way for your birds to end up last. Believe me these people know how to judge when it comes to major National shows, not some neighborhood 4h thing or a county fair. We must have respect for these judges who are putting forth their time and experience and work for 10+ hrs a day for 3 day's straight to work these shows. Sure I may not agree with some placements but they call them as they see them and we have to respect that and march on. There are always the right and wrong way to do things, and after the judging if you approach the judge to go over the results in a respectfull knowledgable manner, he will be more than happy to go over his evaluation of your birds.

AL

 

[galanie]

Quote:
I think using publications is a good guideline for evaluating the quality of your birds, but one must be very hands on with their breed and know by experience through extensive handling the finer points, strengths & weaknesses and spend many hours looking at other birds in the breed, instead of just quoting from a book. I think it's a terrible idea to confront a show judge and ask him if he knows what he's looking for in a breed, and to question his ability while you say I READ !! that the bird should ....... from some obscure publication. That is why exhibitors are not allowed to enter the isle when the birds are being judged to avoid any confrontations, and by confronting a judge with that kind of attitude will be a sure way for your birds to end up last. Believe me these people know how to judge when it comes to major National shows, not some neighborhood 4h thing or a county fair. We must have respect for these judges who are putting forth their time and experience and work for 10+ hrs a day for 3 day's straight to work these shows. Sure I may not agree with some placements but they call them as they see them and we have to respect that and march on. There are always the right and wrong way to do things, and after the judging if you approach the judge to go over the results in a respectfull knowledgable manner, he will be more than happy to go over his evaluation of your birds.

AL

Gotta go with Al on this one. It occurs to me also that if someone asked me if I knew my job, I'd just tell them "no" to get them to go away. In fact, I have done that before. 20+ years experience and someone asks me if I know how to do that job. Please! So I just say "nope, no idea" and walk away.

 

[al6517]

I think you can learn more in 10 minutes visiting with a judge or a very well known breeder/ show exhibitor about the finer points of a breed than you can by reading a book that may be subject to interpretation. doing a hands on walk through with these folks in front of a cage is the best teacher. I did this for years before I even entered my first show, many long hard hours of face to face research and hands on work, was the key factor. None of that being done with a holier than thow attitude because I read some book and didn't trust the real champions of the breed. JMHO.